RAID info needed!

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sayatnova
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RAID info needed!

Post by sayatnova »

Hello Everyone,

My old computer is finally dying and I am 1 week away from getting an new Mac Pro. Looking at this as a big investment for the next 6-8 years, I have decided to get an 8-bay Thunderbolt HD enclosure for it. I was thinking that I will save 2 of the 8 drives for general storage needs, so this leave 6 drives that can be potentially configure in some sort of RAID. I am looking at mostly audio work, but will do some video (just HD 1080p, no 4K), as well. I am OK with burning a disk or two for redundancy/safety. I have read that some RAID configurations are better for video and possibly not ideal for audio (as far as read/write performance), but I am not clear as to how this translates in my situation where I am looking to do mostly audio, but also some video, as well...

Any suggestions? Any info would be appreciated.

Thank you,

~Shea
http://www.bfdmusic.com
Mac Studio Ultra, 64 gigs RAM, OSX 12.7.3, DP 11.3, UAD2 thunderbolt satellite octo, Apogee Symphony IO MK2 TB
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BKK-OZ
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by BKK-OZ »

Cheers,
BK

…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
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jloeb
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by jloeb »

In addition to that thread (and many others on this site), I'd say that since you've basically ruled out 4K video editing, the answer is given by what kind of drives you're planning to put in your case.

- If they're SSDs (aside from backup/storage of course, for which wd green platter drives are perfect), then no, you definitely don't need to RAID them and I wouldn't recommend it.

- If they're platter drives, not sure. I don't know how smoothly 1080p editing works on, for example, a 7200rpm drive without RAID, but I'd want someone with lots of experience editing involved projects at that resolution to chime in on that before making a decision.
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billf
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by billf »

For more info on the video part of your question, Creative Cow is a good forum and resource.

https://forums.creativecow.net/raid
MacPro5,1 2012, six core 2 x 3.06, 10.12.5, Digital Performer 9.13, 40 gb ram, 828mkIII, 2408 mkII, MTP AV, Logic Pro X 10.3.1, Studio One v 3.2, Pro Tools 12.7.1
sayatnova
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by sayatnova »

Hello BKK-OZ,

Thank you for this. I did, indeed, see this before, but it shifted into a focus on SSDs and the Trim command pretty quickly (which is what prompted this thread). What I was hoping to look at was: if I have 8 drives (spinners for now, no SSDs), and I do both video and audio, which type of set-up configuration makes the best sense?

It seems that RAID 5 gives protection at a loss of 1 disk capacity per array? It seems great for video and while not necessary for audio, is also great for that. So, given this, does it not make sense to make two, 4-disk RAID 5 arrays out of my 8 disk tower? This way, I have some performance gain for video with a 3 disk usable speed share per array, and I can use the second array to back-up the first...? Yes, I burn 2 disks to insurance, but that seems well worth the security.

Does this seem correct?

Thank you for the help, take care.

~Shea
http://www.bfdmusic.com
Mac Studio Ultra, 64 gigs RAM, OSX 12.7.3, DP 11.3, UAD2 thunderbolt satellite octo, Apogee Symphony IO MK2 TB
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mikehalloran
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by mikehalloran »

I was thinking that I will save 2 of the 8 drives for general storage needs, so this leave 6 drives that can be potentially configure in some sort of RAID
You need an enclosure that supports JBOD–not all do.

JBOD (Just a Bunch Of Drives) lets you configure the array any way you want. It can be one RAID array, two or any combination of RAID and single drives.

Without JBOD support, all of the drives in any bay over TB must be configured into a single RAID array. This is fine if that's what you want but saving 2 drives for general storage will require one or more additional drive housings.

RAID is not as important now as it was in the G4 and earlier days when bus speed topped out at 133mHz. Nowadays, SATA and eSATA 2 & 3. USB 3, Thunderbolt 1 & 2 are all faster than the best 7200rpm mechanical drives. Yes, certain RAID arrays can increase speed but do you need it?

Not all drive bays support all types of RAID. In addition, some types of RAID are slower than JBOD. So do your homework before you buy.
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sayatnova
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by sayatnova »

mikehalloran wrote:
I was thinking that I will save 2 of the 8 drives for general storage needs, so this leave 6 drives that can be potentially configure in some sort of RAID
You need an enclosure that supports JBOD–not all do.

JBOD (Just a Bunch Of Drives) lets you configure the array any way you want. It can be one RAID array, two or any combination of RAID and single drives.

Without JBOD support, all of the drives in any bay over TB must be configured into a single RAID array. This is fine if that's what you want but saving 2 drives for general storage will require one or more additional drive housings.

RAID is not as important now as it was in the G4 and earlier days when bus speed topped out at 133mHz. Nowadays, SATA and eSATA 2 & 3. USB 3, Thunderbolt 1 & 2 are all faster than the best 7200rpm mechanical drives. Yes, certain RAID arrays can increase speed but do you need it?

Not all drive bays support all types of RAID. In addition, some types of RAID are slower than JBOD. So do your homework before you buy.
Hello Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I am looking at the Areca 8050 T2 8 bay. It looks like it can do whatever I want. As far as a speed increase need: for audio probably not; for video, yes.

While using more drives in a RAID increases the overall speed, I think the slight increase in using 4 drives as a RAID 5 will still be better than a single 7200, no? By having two 4-drive RAID5s, I can use one to back up the other (I am used to doing this manually).

I originally had mentioned having two separate drives for general storage, but I think I will just use separate external drives for this and just leave the Arecas' 8 drives for audio and video work only.

Of course, It will all get much faster with SSDs in the future. However, for now, I am looking at this solution as one I can grow into for the next 5 years, not just on an immediate need for speed. I am just trying to see which set-up makes the most sense for now.

Does this seem like a good understanding?

Thank you, I appreciate your time.

~Shea
http://www.bfdmusic.com
Mac Studio Ultra, 64 gigs RAM, OSX 12.7.3, DP 11.3, UAD2 thunderbolt satellite octo, Apogee Symphony IO MK2 TB
sayatnova
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by sayatnova »

billf wrote:For more info on the video part of your question, Creative Cow is a good forum and resource.

https://forums.creativecow.net/raid
Thanks billf,

I do know about Creative Cow and did a search there, as well. That place is really great, along with Larry Jordans' site. That led me to go with the Areca 8050 T2 8-Bay for my ext HDD enclosure. I asked here for more info on audio needs because these set-ups are less intensive than the video ones, and folks here are used to dealing with these parameters specifically.

Thanks for the info, it all helps.

~Shea
http://www.bfdmusic.com
Mac Studio Ultra, 64 gigs RAM, OSX 12.7.3, DP 11.3, UAD2 thunderbolt satellite octo, Apogee Symphony IO MK2 TB
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billf
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by billf »

sayatnova wrote:
billf wrote:For more info on the video part of your question, Creative Cow is a good forum and resource.

https://forums.creativecow.net/raid
Thanks billf,

I do know about Creative Cow and did a search there, as well. That place is really great, along with Larry Jordans' site. That led me to go with the Areca 8050 T2 8-Bay for my ext HDD enclosure. I asked here for more info on audio needs because these set-ups are less intensive than the video ones, and folks here are used to dealing with these parameters specifically.

Thanks for the info, it all helps.

~Shea
For audio-video work with DP, this is the place to be. Creative Cow is a good site if you are ever in need of talking to experts in the video field that work extensively with Final Cut/Avid/etc.
MacPro5,1 2012, six core 2 x 3.06, 10.12.5, Digital Performer 9.13, 40 gb ram, 828mkIII, 2408 mkII, MTP AV, Logic Pro X 10.3.1, Studio One v 3.2, Pro Tools 12.7.1
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jloeb
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by jloeb »

Terse and to the point - and strongly implies that you won't need RAID if you're not going above 1080p:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/vid ... ng-studios

Not sure that's dispositive, but you sure won't need RAID for audio, so it's doubtful you'd need it for the combination if you're not working with more than 1 or 2 video streams.
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BKK-OZ
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by BKK-OZ »

jloeb wrote:...Not sure that's dispositive, but ...
Dispositive: my new word for today!

meaning: Relating to or bringing about the settlement of an issue or the disposition of property
Cheers,
BK

…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
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mikehalloran
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by mikehalloran »

jloeb wrote:Terse and to the point - and strongly implies that you won't need RAID if you're not going above 1080p:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/vid ... ng-studios

Not sure that's dispositive, but you sure won't need RAID for audio, so it's doubtful you'd need it for the combination if you're not working with more than 1 or 2 video streams.
Interesting article. It must be old as it does not acknowledge 1T SSDs as existing nor eSATA MultiPort (up to 20 drives at once via 3rd party PCIe cards and hubs).

eSATA MultiPort is easy to add to a MacBook Pro or Mac Pro tower. There's no reason to add it to an nMP as a Thunderbolt JBOD bay gets the job done already.
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sayatnova
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by sayatnova »

jloeb wrote:Terse and to the point - and strongly implies that you won't need RAID if you're not going above 1080p:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/vid ... ng-studios

Not sure that's dispositive, but you sure won't need RAID for audio, so it's doubtful you'd need it for the combination if you're not working with more than 1 or 2 video streams.

Hello jloeb,

Interesting read, thank you for this article. I will indeed be doing 3 cam multi shots, so I think a RAID5 will be best for this. I think I will leave the audio as JBODs. Therefore, I think I am best suited doing a single RAID 5 using 4 disks for video, then keep the other 4 disks as JBODs for audio and general back-up duties.

I will use enterprise class drives for the RAID, but I wonder if the new WD Red HDDs are good enough for audio work? Or, best to use enterprise class drives for the audio work, as well?

Thoughts?

Thank you,

~Shea
http://www.bfdmusic.com
Mac Studio Ultra, 64 gigs RAM, OSX 12.7.3, DP 11.3, UAD2 thunderbolt satellite octo, Apogee Symphony IO MK2 TB
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mikehalloran
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by mikehalloran »

WD Red should only be used in NATS RAID arrays. The firmware is designed to allow bad blocks to be written. This can cause big problems with single drives but, with certain RAID configurations, it makes them faster due to the redundancies of RAID 5. WD does not recommend Red for any other purpose and neither does anyone else.

Blue and Black drives are faster than Green and Red. Yes, they cost more and run hotter but are what you want for AV. For most applications, the difference between Blue and Black is that Black runs hotter, is slightly more responsive and has a longer warranty. Green is great for Time Machine.

Best performance is with SSDs. The downsides are cost and the current 1T limit on capacity.
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sayatnova
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Re: RAID info needed!

Post by sayatnova »

mikehalloran wrote:WD Red should only be used in NATS RAID arrays. The firmware is designed to allow bad blocks to be written. This can cause big problems with single drives but, with certain RAID configurations, it makes them faster due to the redundancies of RAID 5. WD does not recommend Red for any other purpose and neither does anyone else.

Blue and Black drives are faster than Green and Red. Yes, they cost more and run hotter but are what you want for AV. For most applications, the difference between Blue and Black is that Black runs hotter, is slightly more responsive and has a longer warranty. Green is great for Time Machine.

Best performance is with SSDs. The downsides are cost and the current 1T limit on capacity.

Thank you, Mike. This is great info! If you were going to populate an 8-bay enclosure with 7200 spinners now (SSDs will come later), which drives would you choose? WD Black, WD Enterprise (slightly more money than the black), or ?...

~Shea
http://www.bfdmusic.com
Mac Studio Ultra, 64 gigs RAM, OSX 12.7.3, DP 11.3, UAD2 thunderbolt satellite octo, Apogee Symphony IO MK2 TB
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