Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advice

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billf
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by billf »

I had this kind of situation with tapes that were originally recorded on a Tascam 246 using DBX. I was able to locate a Tascam 424 mkII, which while not the exact same machine, worked perfectly for letting me get the raw tracks into DP. I had to turn the DBX off on the 424 and clean it up later with Izotope tools, but the clean up process was painless. I can't imagine how difficult it would be if I had tried to do it using a two track.

So I agree with the posts above, if you have any way to get access to a comparable four track machine to the one which did the original recordings, that is the way to go.
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Babz
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by Babz »

magicd wrote:Since the tape is slowed down, that means pitch, tempo, and formants are cut in half. You don't want to do any DSP processing to speed the recording back up, because you want all three elements to be speeded up together. So if you record the original pass at 44.1, you then want to change the sample rate flag on the audio to 88.2, and then play it back at that sample rate. Theoretically you'll get exactly the right speed, pitch, and formants.
At the risk of sounding like HAL, the computer in 2001, I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.

Seriously, I'm not sure exactly how I would do this. How or where do I change the sample rate "flag"?

I record the track at 44.1. Then what? I select the soundbite, then go to the Soundbites window mini menu and choose Convert Audio File. I tick the Sample Rate box and in the box next to where it says "from 41000 Hz to _________" I type in 88200. This seems to create a new soundbite. But then what? It has an X through it and won't play in the project.

There is also an option that says "Only change the files recognized sample rate but do not process the files audio". Not sure what this is for or if I should use it or not.

If I export the soundbite, and then create a new 88.2 project and import it, it does not play back at a faster speed.

What am I doing wrong? In short, I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave. Or rather, HOW do I do that, Dave? :roll:

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Babz
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by wvandyck »

Babz wrote: Here's another thought, a long shot … Is there anyone out there who still has a double-speed cassette multitrack (preferably Yamaha) that might be willing to transfer the tracks for me?

Thanks in advance for any ideas or suggestions….

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Babz
I have a double speed Tascam 424 MKll with dbx Type ll and direct outs. Not sure if this is compatible with the version of dbx on the Yamaha.

I would volunteer to make the transfer as a good deed. :unicorn: It then becomes a matter of how to securely deliver it since it's your original. PM me if interested.
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by bayswater »

Babz wrote:I record the track at 44.1. Then what? I select the soundbite, then go to the Soundbites window mini menu and choose Convert Audio File. I tick the Sample Rate box and in the box next to where it says "from 41000 Hz to _________" I type in 88200. This seems to create a new soundbite. But then what? It has an X through it and won't play in the project.
Check the box that tells it to only change the recognized sample rate. If you drag the file from the Soundbites Window to your desktop, then preview it, it will play back according to the recognized sample rate. Now drag it back in to DP, and let DP process it to conform to the project sample rate and it should be OK.

I'm sure there is a clever way to get it all done in one step entirely within DP, but DP works too hard to play back audio "properly", so I find it easier to trick it by dragging audio out and back in.

Converting from 44.1K to 88.2K will make it play back at double speed. I think you want it to play back at half speed? So change it in the opposite direction.
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by mikehalloran »

I have a double speed Tascam 424 MKll with dbx Type ll and direct outs. Not sure if this is compatible with the version of dbx on the Yamaha.
The Yamaha uses dBx II. That's not the issue. Is the head layout compatible? And, if it isn't, does it make a big difference? The only way to know anymore is to try it.

Richard Hess specializes in restoring audio. http://www.richardhess.com/tape/

Here's a primer on dBx: http://en.wikiaudio.org/Dbx_(noise_reduction) It doesn't have the eq graphs necessary to understand why straight expansion sounds bad especially with dBx II but it's a start.

I found some graphs that I recognize from the manuals of my dBx 150 Type I units (I still have 4 channels) and a Type II decoder I used to own,

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by Babz »

Thanks for the kind offer, wvandyck! Will get back to you, if I need to go that route. The Tascam/Yamaha thing could create issues, so I suppose before going that route I should see if a Yamaha option might become available. And thanks for the tips bayswater. Plus, I just noticed stubbsonic's post about Audacity -- seems there is a "Change Speed" option there.

So, many options to explore just now...

Babz
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by mikehalloran »

You don't need a Yamaha MT3X to play back the tapes. A Yamaha MT4X works just as well. Checking recent eBay listings, both occasionally sell under $100. There's a 3X with an opening bid of $59.95 right now.

The difference is that the 3X has a 6-channel mixer while the 4X has a 4-channel mixer. There's also an MT2X with an even more elaborate mixer. The head, direct outs, dBx II in/out and high/low tape speed with 10% pitch control are the same.

The manuals are online making it easy to compare.

When I am done with my Fostex X-28, it goes back onto eBay where I found it. Written up right with a reconditioned roller, I might make a profit. Could happen.
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by Shooshie »

Babz wrote:Maybe I'm just chasing unicorns. :unicorn: :unicorn: :unicorn:

Me too, Babz. But just in case that's what you're doing, don't ever change. Ok?

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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by Shooshie »

Mike, those are interesting charts, and I appreciate your posting them. Strange, though, that it's just EQ. I always thought there was compression involved in Dolby and dBX. I used to understand that stuff backward and forward, but since digital took over, I've forgotten so much about tape.

I still have a ton of very important tapes to copy to digital, but I need my Nakamichi Dragon to decode the Dolby C, and it was ruined long ago by the repairman that Nakamichi insisted I take it to. I knew the guy, and I knew he wasn't very good, but Nakamichi wouldn't allow me to send it to them or to any other region's repairman, so I gave it a shot, and sure enough, he ruined it on the first try. It's now 31 years old. My friend's, bought at the same time, still run's fine, but he's in San Francisco. I've got a Sony "Professional Walkman" with Dolby C, but it has an audible motor noise (flutter, maybe?) that gets into the sound. So whatcha gonna do?

I'll just forget about it, probably.

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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by stubbsonic »

I wonder if any of these NR processes (Dolby or DBX) have a multi-band compression component. Ultimately, reversing compression (using expansion) does seem like it would be tricky without the proper decode, but it really depends on how much one wants it to be "pure".

One dynamics processor that doesn't often get its due is WaveArts MultiDynamics. It has per-band upward or downward compression or expansion. Incredibly tweakable and hi-fi.

I expect it could give DBX a run for its money.

Babz said she did have money to throw at this. I don't recall if DP's Dynamic EQ does expansion.
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by bayswater »

stubbsonic wrote:I wonder if any of these NR processes (Dolby or DBX) have a multi-band compression component.
IIRC, Dolby B was mutltband, in that it only compressed high frequencies.
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by mikehalloran »

All Dolby has multiband compression - the frequencies and number of bands depends on the type.

dBx uses multiband filtering in addition to single band commanding. It's easier to approximate but I don't know anyone who has nailed it. Certain anomalies in the analog circuits have to be engineered. Since used dBx II units can often be found well under $50 for a stereo unit, why bother? Those who ask over $100 rarely sell. $100 seems to be the going rate for a 150x type I -- I remember paying $300 each for mine.

Although the patents have long run out, Dolby protects their trademarks. I don't know about the owners of dBx.
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by billf »

mikehalloran wrote:The Yamaha uses dBx II. That's not the issue. Is the head layout compatible? And, if it isn't, does it make a big difference? The only way to know anymore is to try it.
The tape head layout is a possible issue, and as you say, it will require testing it to determine if it works. In my case we had to turn off the dBx switch on the four track, which brought in a lot of hiss of course. But after I dropped everything into DP, it was relatively easy to clean it up. But the tape head layout was compatible fortunately.
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by Babz »

For those of you super nerds out there still following this saga …

OK, so I tried the ill-advised method of recording the tracks using a stereo cassette player at half speed and then altering the pitch by doubling the sample rate, etc.

Multiple problems, as you might expect. :banghead:

For starters, the stereo cassette deck is playing back at half speed, but not at precise pitch. So I had to use the rotary pitch adjustment on the tape deck, adjusting by ear! The problem is you are hearing the track a low pitch, and trying to make fine pitch adjustments by ear along with low notes on a MIDI piano. Compounding problems further, the two audio tracks are a vocal and an acoustic guitar -- neither can be counted on as a perfect pitch source. But I did the best I could.

Then comes flipping the tape over and recording the backwards tracks. Actually, it was only ONE track, because the 4th track was used for SMPTE code (which sounds basically like a constant buzz). I recorded the one (3rd) track and reversed it, but the biggest problem is bleed from SMPTE track, which creates an additional little buzz noise on that track! This is on top of the hiss and such from the lack of DBX.

So far not off to such a great start. But I forge ahead and change the sample rate, drag to the desktop and reimport. The result is actually almost decent, but definitely not without a slight odd crunchy digitalness about it.

Even worse, despite my attempts to adjust with the pitch dial upfront, it still comes out slightly sharp.

So now the problem becomes: How do I determine HOW MUCH slightly sharp and compensate for it?

I played along with a MIDI piano and used the pitch bend to find the right tuning by ear. I recorded this MIDI data and examined it and I get the number "640". In other words, a MIDI note tuned up by "640" units of pitch bend is in tune with this slightly sharp audio.

Does anyone know what this 640 number means and how I would use it to micro transpose the pitch on the audio tracks to get them in tune? Or is there some better method?

Obviously this is NOT the way to do things. I will probably just end up throwing out all this work. :smash:

But remember my goal. I really just need the one lead vocal track to layer over the stereo master, to thicken things up and create a double-track effect on certain lyrics. So micro anomalies of the track sound slightly different from the original are not necessarily a problem. Might just add to the chorus effect. But I do need to get it in tune.

I know, chasing unicorns. :unicorn: :unicorn:
Thanks for hanging with me on this quest.

Best,
Babz
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Re: Multitrack Cassette Tape Transfer to DP - Need Help/Advi

Post by stubbsonic »

As for the pitch, I think it is probably best to do these tweaks in Audacity where you can make both percentage AND cents changes to playback rate. Your calculations could be made using the DAT mixes as a basis for comparison. You can say that DAT track length is some number of seconds (e.g. 300) - and the cassette bounce is some number of seconds (580). What percentage do you multiply the bounce length by to make it 300? (I think the answer is 300/580 or 51.72%).

As for the SMPTE cross-talk-- make sure you record the smpte at the same time when you do that pass to record the 3rd track. You can invert the phase and drop the level down of the smpte track and try to cancel the cross-talk that way. You should be able to get rid of most of it. Probably want to do all that before you start working with pitch.
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