Questions from Cubase user

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kresbeatz
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by kresbeatz »

By the way, I figured out how to open different editors with shortcut without dividing screen into two parts. In the DP Preferences - Display - Consolidated Window I checked every editor under "Open in Consolidated Window" and set "Maximum rows to add in the body area to 1. Now, when I'm pressing Shift+M, Shift+S, Shift+D or whatever editors opens totally how I like. And I think they switching much faster instead of Window Sets variant ;))
---

And couple more questions if you don't mind :)

For example, I have one soundbite "one-shot snare" in Sequence view. I need to copy it, so I press Alt+dragging it to the new place, so it creates a copy. But when I'm starting to edit this second snare it will change first snare too. So, it's like an alias or clone. So what I do right now is Alt+dragging it to the new place, select second snare, apply "Merge Soundbites" keycommand and it creates new independent soundbite which I can edit independently. Is there another solution to do this? In Cubase I just hold modifier key and it makes a copy of the region, not alias or clone. I'm finding something like this, is it possible? Is the Edge Edit Copy will be the answer (if I understand right it creates new soundbite every time after my last edit)?

And another question about UNDO. As I understand, cmd+Z makes one step undo and if I press it again it automatically redo last step. So it's like one-step-back-front operation. If I want to return for more than one step, I have to use Undo History or Undo Previous Action keycommand (Alt+Cmd+Z). Am I right? You guys just got used to do it that way or remap keycommand from Alt+Cmd+Z to Cmd+Z, just interesting :)
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sonus
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by sonus »

Welcome to DP world !
For example, I have one soundbite "one-shot snare" in Sequence view. I need to copy it, so I press Alt+dragging it to the new place, so it creates a copy. But when I'm starting to edit this second snare it will change first snare too. So, it's like an alias or clone. So what I do right now is Alt+dragging it to the new place, select second snare, apply "Merge Soundbites" keycommand and it creates new independent soundbite which I can edit independently. Is there another solution to do this? In Cubase I just hold modifier key and it makes a copy of the region, not alias or clone. I'm finding something like this, is it possible?
Go to Sequence editor's mini menu and check "Edge Edit Copy".
And another question about UNDO. As I understand, cmd+Z makes one step undo and if I press it again it automatically redo last step. So it's like one-step-back-front operation. If I want to return for more than one step, I have to use Undo History or Undo Previous Action keycommand (Alt+Cmd+Z). Am I right? You guys just got used to do it that way or remap keycommand from Alt+Cmd+Z to Cmd+Z, just interesting
I find it quite convenient as it is, so I've never tried changing it.
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by kresbeatz »

sonus, thank you very much for such a fast answer! You helped me a lot!
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bayswater
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by bayswater »

kresbeatz wrote:By the way, I figured out how to open different editors with shortcut without dividing screen into two parts. In the DP Preferences - Display - Consolidated Window I checked every editor under "Open in Consolidated Window" and set "Maximum rows to add in the body area to 1. Now, when I'm pressing Shift+M, Shift+S, Shift+D or whatever editors opens totally how I like. And I think they switching much faster instead of Window Sets variant ;))
---
Yes, that is something I was going to mention but it somewhat restricts the workflow: sometime you want two windows vertically. I sometimes have the mixer on the bottom and the meter bridge on the top.

And couple more questions if you don't mind :)
kresbeatz wrote: For example, I have one soundbite "one-shot snare" in Sequence view. I need to copy it, so I press Alt+dragging it to the new place, so it creates a copy. But when I'm starting to edit this second snare it will change first snare too. So, it's like an alias or clone. So what I do right now is Alt+dragging it to the new place, select second snare, apply "Merge Soundbites" keycommand and it creates new independent soundbite which I can edit independently. Is there another solution to do this? In Cubase I just hold modifier key and it makes a copy of the region, not alias or clone. I'm finding something like this, is it possible? Is the Edge Edit Copy will be the answer (if I understand right it creates new soundbite every time after my last edit)?
When you copy soundbites that way, all the copies reference the same object in the soundbites window, so edits apply to all of them. I'm not in front on DP at the moment, but the think edge edit copy option, or holding the option key will create a new soundbite when you edit one of the copies. And IIRC, the other edit actions you might make in the Sequence editor are linked to the track, not the soundbite, so you can make those specific to the copy of the Soundbite you are editing.
kresbeatz wrote: And another question about UNDO. As I understand, cmd+Z makes one step undo and if I press it again it automatically redo last step. So it's like one-step-back-front operation. If I want to return for more than one step, I have to use Undo History or Undo Previous Action keycommand (Alt+Cmd+Z). Am I right? You guys just got used to do it that way or remap keycommand from Alt+Cmd+Z to Cmd+Z, just interesting :)
Just edit the command if you prefer it to work differently. I have mine set so CMD-Z keeps undoing the previous command, but some people prefer the default so you can toggle a change back and forth without moving your fingers on the keyboard. You'll probably end up making a lot of changes to the keyboard commands over time. Just spending a little while browsing the Commands window is worth the effort -- you'll see a lot of functions you might not have thought of.
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Shooshie
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by Shooshie »

When you get your keyboard bindings as you want them, save the preference file for that (User/Library/Preferences/Digital Performer/Command Bindings) in some place where you'll remember it if you ever lose your preferences. (and/or let Time Machine back up everything.) In fact, it's a good idea to save a copy of the whole Digital Performer Preferences folder.

By the way, not to make you feel guilty or anything, but I can't help but remember how long it took me to learn all these things on my own, starting about 28 years ago and continuing as Performer became Digital Performer, and then as it grew into UNIX, matured along with OS X, and evolved into its current form. I'm amazed and a little bit proud when I see how quickly this community can get someone up to speed with those specific questions, specific techniques, sometimes just that one button that eludes all forms of lookup in manuals. You're fortunate to have come to this place!

There's something also to be said for the continuity at MOTU, where some of the people who helped me on the phone back in, say, 1991, are still there! It's been a great ride, and I especially love that we can still talk to people who were there creating DP as we used it and gave them feedback. It feels a little like a family.

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kresbeatz
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by kresbeatz »

bayswater, thanks, now I feel much more comfortable in DP, especially in Sequence window.

Shooshie, yes, I understand.. As I see, this is a great forum with a lot of helpful people. For me it's very important to get into basic things as fast as possible to start working on the new project. That way I can learn everything much faster, that's why I have to ask some basic questions here instead of reading manual meticulously. Anyway, now I understand basic editing tools and concepts of DP and start to realise all the power of this program. I just don't understand why is not so popular like Logic, PT and Cubase :)
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Shooshie
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by Shooshie »

kresbeatz wrote:I just don't understand why is not so popular like Logic, PT and Cubase :)
It's more popular than people know. The people who use DP are not so concerned with letting everyone know about it. I do not know why, particularly, except that possibly the people who end up with DP are more concerned about getting their work done than about bragging in the studio lounge about how much money they spent on their Pro Tools setup.

Also, Logic is the natural progression from Garageband, which Apple includes on most of their computers, I think.

In the 1990s, people who did not know the history of DP and Pro Tools used to think that all DAWs were inferior to Pro Tools. Because of the way that PT worked, it was much faster and more powerful than any native DAW. Pro Tools used the Mac as a kind of switching station for mixing. The actual audio files and their processing all took place in expensive co-processors. That was back when computers were very slow. Back then, you could use Digital Performer as a front-end for Pro Tools, and have MIDI and audio synced up at sample-accuracy. Pro Tools didn't do MIDI then, so DP worked with Digidesign Hardware, giving you the best of both worlds, combined. I think this is what initially drew film composers to DP. (along with Chunks)

Native audio came into its own when the Mac achieved gigaflop processing, in about 1999. The G3 PowerMac and especially the G4 PowerMac made it possible for DP to do within a single Mac what ProTools required several co-processor boards to do. These boards, by the way, cost tens of thousands of dollars for a basic setup that could do about 16 tracks. By 2001 I was doing almost 100 tracks of audio on a single G4 PowerMac. Pro Tools could not do that. Period.

I asked a Waves engineer in Tel Aviv why Pro Tools plugins cost twice as much as Native plugins. He was not sure. So, I asked him if they did more or sounded better than Native plugins. He said that DP's plugins ran at 32 bits floating-point. Pro Tools plugins ran at 24 bits. He said that the resolution inside DP's plugins made them sonically superior to those of Pro Tools. These words were from the mouth of a man who programmed those plugins. That was in the year 2001, so it may have changed since then.

In other words, by 2001, any advantage in using Pro Tools had to do with the user interface feeling a little more snappy when handling large loads. Within a few years, that advantage would be history, as well. Many people do not know that Pro Tools was more about hardware than software, and that Digital Performer was an alternative front end for Pro Tools hardware. Essentially, you could have the best of both worlds, if you wanted to. At some point, the low price and high capacity of Native Audio made the expense and track limits of Pro Tools hardware seem ridiculous, at least to me!

In any case, the mythology of Pro Tools grew. We were all excited to be able to see our wave-forms and edit them right there on the screen. You could surgically remove pops or close audio loops for a perfect match. But when Digidesign began charging astronomical prices for hardware that cost them a fraction of that, MOTU saw an opportunity for a new market using Native audio, and they created the 2408 audio interface. MOTU knew that processing power would double again and again, only making their software stronger and stronger. Early DP was pretty limited, but... well... you see where it is today. But in 1995, if you were hanging out in a studio, talking about digital audio, it was Pro Tools you were discussing. That kind of mythology takes a long time to die out.

Meanwhile, a competing buzz grew from Apple's Logic, which was formerly a DAW for Mac and PC by eMagic, a German company. Apple's taking it over brought it much sophistication in the development process, but it had always been a very awkward DAW. It had a reputation of being for programmers, not musicians. Apple was able to make it much more user-friendly. One of its fundamental processes has always been audio loops. It does essentially what MachFive and DP combined do, all wrapped in one app. Composing with loops is a whole different process than that of most DP users, so it's popularity evolved for entirely different reasons.

If I were to profile a typical DP user, I'd say he or she is handy with MIDI and tends to use DP's audio side as a recording studio. Thus, their composition takes place more in MIDI, and their audio more resembles what you'd get from going to a big studio 20 years ago. That's not to say that they don't use audio loops, but I'd say that loop-composition is probably >20% of DP's output, whereas with Logic it's probably 80% or more. Because MOTU's Performer was a MIDI powerhouse back in the day, there is still a large contingency of very strong MIDI users in DP. The ability to do all of it with a familiar old-school recording-studio interface makes DP more attractive to some. For others, it's a hinderance.

Who can explain personal preferences? I use it because I like it. I've tried many of the others, and while I see they might be very good for certain niches, most are kind of limited for the way I work. That's all I know!

Shoosh
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by bayswater »

Logic was widespread long before GB came about.

I think it has more to do with easy access. For the longest time, DP was pretty much impossible to assess. MOTU had some nice full page ads, but there was no way to trial it, and no way to read over the manual to see what it does. Other DAWs were more likely to be sitting on screens in music stores, to have "lite" versions bundled with inexpensive gear, to have trial versions, or have downloadable manuals. It was just too easy to get other DAWs and not include DP in the list of options.

Three rules in marketing -- have a good product -- tell people about it -- make it easy to get. Until recently, DP was not addressing the last one very well. But that has all changed now.
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by Shooshie »

bayswater wrote:Logic was widespread long before GB came about.

I think it has more to do with easy access. For the longest time, DP was pretty much impossible to assess. MOTU had some nice full page ads, but there was no way to trial it, and no way to read over the manual to see what it does. Other DAWs were more likely to be sitting on screens in music stores, to have "lite" versions bundled with inexpensive gear, to have trial versions, or have downloadable manuals. It was just too easy to get other DAWs and not include DP in the list of options.

Three rules in marketing -- have a good product -- tell people about it -- make it easy to get. Until recently, DP was not addressing the last one very well. But that has all changed now.
That's probably true, too. But MOTU did have Audiodesk. (Is that what it was called?) It was bundled with every piece of their hardware, and even with Performer. It was essentially the audio side of DP; no MIDI. I think most of DP's audio capabilities were there, and it was essentially free. But getting the full version of DP cost about $999 back then. At least that was the advertised price. Street price was more like $800-$900. So yeah, accessibility was a factor.

Not to quibble, but Logic was really a niche back then. Nobody talked about it, and I was around industry people every day. Mention Logic, and they'd kind of look at you funny and make some derogatory comment like "yeah, if you want to be a PROGRAMMER!"

There was a guy who came to Dallas in about 2001, and he used Logic. He quickly found entry into the very closed world of jingle composition, which was a big industry in Dallas, but for only a very few people. I wondered what his secret was. I saw him at parties, and I played flute with impromptu groups that performed. He'd play guitar. If I mentioned changing keys or doing anything different, he'd say he didn't do that. He was a very weak guitar player, and only knew the songs he'd learned, the way he learned them. I learned that he wasn't really a trained musician like the people I knew, who could take score paper and write out a jazz arrangement for big band in an hour. He wasn't a performer, either. So... how did he get into that circle? Well, it turned out he was basically undercutting them, and wasn't a member of the circle, but was working for a studio for which he could churn out basic jingles very quickly. What was his secret? Logic. He was just putting loops together. This was before Apple owned Logic, and before Garageband enabled every advertising executive to put together their own jingles and record them with a singer, cheaply and with a competent sounding result.

Obviously, I'm a little biased, having grown up in the traditional music channels, where you apprenticed, went to school, learned to read and write music, learned to think in chord changes, and learned at least one instrument well enough to perform professionally. This loop thing was something I didn't understand, and for years, something I didn't approve of.

But one thing I do know; I was not alone. Traditional musicians hated Logic and the people who used it to undercut their work. The debates in forums raged back then about whether using loops was really creating anything, or if it was cheating, somehow. But things are what they are. Logic and all loop-based apps provided another avenue for creativity, and one that didn't require a lifetime of developing skills. It did what the Laserwriter and Pagemaker did to print shops, or what Multiplan and Excel did to rooms full of people with slide rules. We've all had to come to grips with that reality. So, Logic was not widespread among musicians and studios at first, but it has attracted them over time as it has become more mainstream.

Shooshie
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by bayswater »

Shooshie wrote:
But MOTU did have Audiodesk. (Is that what it was called?) It was bundled with every piece of their hardware, and even with Performer. It was essentially the audio side of DP; no MIDI.

Not to quibble, but Logic was really a niche back then. Nobody talked about it, and I was around industry people every day. Mention Logic, and they'd kind of look at you funny and make some derogatory comment like "yeah, if you want to be a PROGRAMMER!"
AudioDesk was free, but only with a fairly expensive piece of kit.

I don't think price was a big distinguisher. The first copy of Cubase Audio I bought for the Atari Falcon was 899, and a full copy of Logic was ~1000. ProTools was umpty thousand.

I think the reaction to Logic might have been a bit different in some places. Most people around here knew of Logic but had no opinions about it. But none of them had even heard of DP.
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by Shooshie »

bayswater wrote:But none of them had even heard of DP.
That's so weird to me. I mean, I remember that, too. But in the mid-1990s, I used to read in news magazines about people carrying around their latest mix in Digital Performer on their Powerbooks, and even saw someone demonstrate it on a late-night show one time. He was showing off his song, not the software. I thought DP was a household word!
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by kresbeatz »

So, guys, I almost finished my song in DP.

5x hardware synths (through MIDI and audio tracks, recorded simultaneously, some of them have multi outputs like Nord Lead 4 or Analog Rytm)
12x audio tracks (field recordings, drum "top loop" construction, my old samples, etc)
3x virtual instruments (Omnisphere multi-out, Alchemy, Zebra 2)
1x MachFive sampler
1x Battery 4 drum sampler
A lot of native and DSP plug-ins (UAD, Slate Digital, Soundtoys, KuSH, Softube, Fabfilter, Sonnox)

I used pitch correction as effect a lot (thanks for PureDSP tip), different chunk for drum construction with V-Racks, a lot of side-chain and parallel compression.

I haven't got any crash, DP worked rock solid. In terms of performance was about the same as Cubase 7.5 (I used in Preferences only real-time calculation of plugins, no pre-gen was used), but much much more stable. Not a single crash or dropouts or whatever, I'm happy now :)

I worked in DP for about 2.5 week total and feel pretty comfortable with it (Groove3, manual and this forum helps A LOT). I assigned a lot of key commands and I can say that I'm working even faster in some circumstances than in Cubase. Mixer is a dream! Finally, I can freely move channels to my taste :) Most unusual thing for me was lack of "MIDI region" or "MIDI clip", so I have to move back and forth between Sequence and Track windows a lot to just copy some regions (because it's not so comfortable to do it in Sequence or MIDI Editor window, at least for me).

Mostly I'm making Liquid Funk (it's Drum'n'bass sub-genre, but much more melodic and soulful) and IDM (intelligent dance music) - so pretty modern styles. And for my surprise I can tell for sure that DP suits my needs very very well. So, I bought DP8 and MachFive 3 :)

I want to thank all of you again for your help and advices :unicorn: :unicorn: :unicorn:
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bayswater
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by bayswater »

kresbeatz wrote: Most unusual thing for me was lack of "MIDI region" or "MIDI clip":
At the risk of starting yet another lengthy diversion, yes, there have been many calls for the addition of some sort of MIDI region to DP to simplify some types of MIDI edits, or to enable the application of playback parameters at a region level. If you search for these topics, you'll find a discussion of alternatives that people use.
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Re: Questions from Cubase user

Post by Shooshie »

kresbeatz wrote:Most unusual thing for me was lack of "MIDI region" or "MIDI clip", so I have to move back and forth between Sequence and Track windows a lot to just copy some regions (because it's not so comfortable to do it in Sequence or MIDI Editor window, at least for me).
In DP, our "MIDI Clip" is our Selection. We work in selections. There are MANY ways to select things in DP, and it pays to know and use them all as the circumstance dictates. However, there was one thing that eluded me for while, such that I had to create special commands to help me with it. That is, turning event selections into range selections of exactly the total length of the selected events.

Say, you have some notes selected, but you need also to select all the Continuous Controllers that go with the notes, while not disturbing those controllers that lie outside the boundaries of the notes.

I made a post about that in the Tips Sheet thread (page 2). You may or may not have had time to take a look at it, but if you give it a try, I think you'll find it saves you loads of time and strain on the wrist. It's habit for me, now, so grabbing those controllers takes only a fraction of a second. As soon as I think of it, it's done. Anyway, here's another link to that, if you care to learn about it:
Working with Selections in DP

When I'm working in data selections, the most important key is the SHIFT. Within text selections such as lists, the key is COMMAND, but DP still uses the original Mac multiple-selection command, SHIFT, for data. (to change the commands at this point would simply cause too many problems) Sometimes you have to use the QuickFilter in the MIDI Graphic Edit Window to get rid of all the controllers so that you can select using Velocity Tics. It's often easy to select a melody line by velocities, since they tend to be a little louder than the surrounding notes.

It's important to learn the technique where you select what you DON'T want, then SHIFT-SELECT over it all to de-select what you don't want, and pick up what you DO want. Many circumstances benefit from that technique.

And don't forget the Search command. If you haven't checked it out, take some time to look at all its parameters. Don't miss the time-grid, which enables you to find notes that either fit your time specifications exactly, or notes which fall in the ranges you specify.

The SHIFT command (COMMAND-L) often helps move large selections exactly where you want them. It's what keeps me from needing "MIDI Clips" or Region-Based dragging as in Logic. Those are too confining for me. Give me SHIFT any day!

It's all about maintaining your selections until you're done with them. You can even remember selection ranges. (Drop down menu in the Selection Info within the editor window header.)

Enjoy!

Shooshie
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