MIDI Editing Question

[Shibboleth]

Hello Everyone,

I am a Composer for Film & Television. My primary DAW has always been Cubase. Recently I've been working in DP8. I have a few questions re: MIDI editing and workflow that I was wondering if other users could answer for me.

1) MIDI Edit & Selection.

I've noticed some weird behavior, and it's driving me crazy with my workflow. Let's say that I am in the Tracks window and select multiple MIDI tracks, regions, etc. If I then select the Quickscribe view, or the Drum editing view, then ALL of these selected tracks are visible right away.

However, when I click into the MIDI edit window, only ONE of these MIDI tracks is visible. I have to then select the others again via the Track Selection sidebar window. Is there any way to have DP8 show ALL of the tracks that I went through the trouble of trying to find and initially select immediately, rather than being forced to use the sideboard selection method?

2) When editing MIDI, there is the teeny tiny pencil symbol in the Tracks Selection sidebar that designates which track is currently editable.

Is there a way to QUICKLY cycle through my selected visible tracks for editing? This is something do all the time in Cubase, and it's extremely frustrating to have to use the mouse, and try to click the tiny space to make the pencil tool show up on an alternate MIDI track selection.

Something quick, like left/right or up/down arrows to jump back and forth through my selections?

3) MIDI EDITING REDUX

When I've selected multiple MIDI tracks for editing, is it possible to actually group edit them at one time? Again, this is a feature I use all the time in Cubase and it speeds up workflow.

Basically, if I select 4 String tracks, for example, is there any way to DRAW in CC data on all of these selections at the same time, rather than having to copy/paste or edit them individually. Which is tedious on large templates for scoring..

(Rather than record enabling them and trying to play in the new CC data in real time...... )


4) TRANSPORT WIPER

The Transport Wiper (or whatever it's called), i.e., the Line that show you where you are currently in your session.

How can I turn OFF the feature that plays the audio and/or MIDI while scrubbing through my session? I just want to use it to get from point A to point B, without having to hear anything unless I'm actually playing my session.

[Shooshie]

Hello Everyone,

I am a Composer for Film & Television. My primary DAW has always been Cubase. Recently I've been working in DP8. I have a few questions re: MIDI editing and workflow that I was wondering if other users could answer for me.

1) MIDI Edit & Selection.

I've noticed some weird behavior, and it's driving me crazy with my workflow. Let's say that I am in the Tracks window and select multiple MIDI tracks, regions, etc. If I then select the Quickscribe view, or the Drum editing view, then ALL of these selected tracks are visible right away.

However, when I click into the MIDI edit window, only ONE of these MIDI tracks is visible. I have to then select the others again via the Track Selection sidebar window. Is there any way to have DP8 show ALL of the tracks that I went through the trouble of trying to find and initially select immediately, rather than being forced to use the sideboard selection method?

Yes and no. You can have it select all the tracks you picked out, but it won't DE-select the tracks that were already selected in the MIDI Graphic Edit Window. So, you get both the old selection and the new selection. The workaround, of course, is to deselect everything in the MIDI Graphic Edit window before you do this. Actually, you can deselect all but one track in that list with a single click: OPTION-CLICK the track you want to keep. (You can't deselect ALL tracks, or the MIDI Edit Window would not have any tracks to display.) Now, to get the other tracks you want, follow these steps:

• First, you must have your preferences set for one MIDI Graphic Edit window per sequence. Actually, it probably works both ways, but I haven't tested it the other way in many, many years, so I have forgotten. You can test it if you want. The other way, being one MIDI Graphic Edit window per track, of course.
  
  Second, Make your selection of tracks in the Tracks Overview Window.
  
  Third, type SHIFT-G. The MIDI Graphic Edit Window will open, and the tracks you selected will be the visible tracks.

2) When editing MIDI, there is the teeny tiny pencil symbol in the Tracks Selection sidebar that designates which track is currently editable.

Is there a way to QUICKLY cycle through my selected visible tracks for editing? This is something I do all the time in Cubase, and it's extremely frustrating to have to use the mouse, and try to click the tiny space to make the pencil tool show up on an alternate MIDI track selection.

Something quick, like left/right or up/down arrows to jump back and forth through my selections?

Yes, there are commands that will move your selection to the next track or previous track. I think you have to provide your own keyboard binding for them. It's been a long time, and I always keep my keyboard bindings (for over 25 years), so I do not know what the defaults are anymore.

You might benefit from this post in the DP Tips Sheet, page 2.

My commands for this are OPTION-SHIFT-UP ARROW/DOWN ARROW. If you need to set these up, go to the Commands Window (SHIFT-L) and look up "Move Selection." You can set your commands as you wish.

By the way, I recommend printing out the Commands Window and keeping it with the manual or some place handy. Most of what makes DP great will be found in the Commands Window, and the only way you'll ever find it is to read the Commands Window. Period. Trust me on that. You NEED to READ the COMMANDS WINDOW! Print it out! Study what's possible, and set up commands to suit your workflow. You can even set them up in MIDI.

3) MIDI EDITING REDUX

When I've selected multiple MIDI tracks for editing, is it possible to actually group edit them at one time? Again, this is a feature I use all the time in Cubase and it speeds up workflow.

Basically, if I select 4 String tracks, for example, is there any way to DRAW in CC data on all of these selections at the same time, rather than having to copy/paste or edit them individually. Which is tedious on large templates for scoring..

(Rather than record enabling them and trying to play in the new CC data in real time...... )

First of all, what's wrong with copying what you did in one track and merging it into the other tracks in the Tracks Overview Window? There are multiple ways to do this. At least one way preserves the location of the control points: Select the CC data, then go to the Tracks Overview Window. Look carefully and you will see what you selected. OPTION-DRAG it to each of the other tracks. It will automatically merge into each one you drop it in.

In the other methods, there are tricks to making them retain their location:

• Trick A: put one control point on the downbeat at the 1|000 mark, then erase it later;
  Trick B: put the cursor at the location of the first point in the selection.

There are always multiple ways of doing things.

But I didn't really answer your question. To edit multiple tracks at once, you would probably need to use the Change Continuous Data dialog box (Region Menu). There you can do certain basic editing, but not drawing complex paths. A simple ramp with a curve, or changing the values by a certain amount; these are the things that are possible when using the dialog box.

If you are drawing phrases as I do, the last thing on earth you'd want is to try to do that to multiple tracks at one time. It's MUCH easier to draw one phrase, then use the commands we talked about earlier to shift your selection up one visible track to draw the next phrase. Just as I can't play two violins at once, I can't draw two phrases at once. Maybe YOU can, but I don't think you will be doing that in DP.

But if I want two or more tracks playing exactly the same phrase, I can easily select the control points and OPTION-DRAG them to the next track in the Tracks Overview Window, or merely switch tracks and delete what's there and merge them right in the MIDI Graphic Edit window.

4) TRANSPORT WIPER

The Transport Wiper (or whatever it's called), i.e., the Line that show you where you are currently in your session.

How can I turn OFF the feature that plays the audio and/or MIDI while scrubbing through my session? I just want to use it to get from point A to point B, without having to hear anything unless I'm actually playing my session.

Yes. In the Control Panel (assuming you have them actively displayed) there are some buttons that include the metronome, auto-scrolling cursor, Solo tracks, pre-roll, post-roll, and.... AUDIBLE MODE. It looks like a speaker. Toggle it on and off with that button. There is a command for that, but it's not assigned to a key by default. Look in the Commands Window (SHIFT-L) for Audible Mode. Assign the keyboard binding you wish, or use MIDI.

Have fun!

Shooshie

[Shibboleth]

First, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Some of which were helpful, others, I have the feeling I wasn't quite clear as to what I'm looking for with regard to solutions.

Re: #4) TRANSPORT WIPER. Thanks! Just what I needed!

re #3) Copying and paste simply isn't a viable solution for this scenario and is tedious. Here's why: It's quick to Opt-Click and drag MIDI copies in the Tracks window. However, it copies everything, and I am often just looking for a quick MIDI CC copy. I'm also not crazy about the need to go back and froth between multiple window views to copy JUST the CC data, and accomplish what should be a straight forward "pencil tool job" in the MIDI edit window.

There's a second consideration here, as well, which is template size. Simply put, I'm working in HUGE templates, and dragging this content to a desired location is messy. Hundreds upon hundreds of tracks, with folders, nested folders, etc...

Part of the annoyance I'm experiencing with DP8 here is the inconsistency of concept execution. Here's what I mean. I can RECORD ENABLE multiple MIDI tracks and play the CC and Notes in across multiple tracks simultaneously. But DP won't allow me to engage in similar behavior while editing in the actual MIDI edit window.

WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR REDUX:

What I'm looking for is the ability to edit and draw in any/all MIDI CC data across multiple tracks at the same time. Is that actually possible in DP8?

In Cubase, I will often open up multiple sets of MIDI tracks. They could be from varied parts of the template (often not adjacent to one another). In Cubase, the MIDI editor allows you to write, draw, or adjust Any/All MIDI data on ALL of the tracks at the same time, or to quickly cycle between the currently selected tracks and edit them individually. I find it's very easy to draw in MIDI CC data across all of the elected tracks, then cycle and make minor adjustments them to flavor as needed.

If you are drawing phrases as I do, the last thing on earth you'd want is to try to do that to multiple tracks at one time. It's MUCH easier to draw one phrase, then use the commands we talked about earlier to shift your selection up one visible track to draw the next phrase.

There are plenty of reasons to want to edit multiple tracks and draw that data in simultaneously. I do it ALL the time in Cubase and it speeds up workflow tremendously. It's insanely simple to do in Cubase, and I'm at a loss as to why DP8 doesn't seem to allow this. This is part of my frustration on this platform, as the MIDI editing lacks a lot of features that I have on the other rig.

______________________

re #2) Thank you for the link to the Digital Performer tips sheet!

I've looked into the Commands selection. What you're describing, however, sounds like the ability to quickly cycle up/down through the available MIDI tracks in Track Selection sidebar window.

Is there a way to simply use a key command (<, >, etc) to cycle up/down through my selections for editing purposes? Not the vertically adjacent tracks in the Selection window or Tracks view.

I'm looking for a solution to cycle between my currently selected tracks. For example: If I select a Piano (track #5), several Strings (track #225, 226, 275), some synths (tracks #456, 507), etc, these tracks are nowhere near each other within the overall template.

I need the ability to work fast, and that requires being able to quickly flip between the selected MIDI data and instruments, edit them, copy/paste, or even draw the data across all of the currently selected if I need to.

I find that I'm spending an inordinate amount of time trying to find and select material, as well as jump around in window views in order to accomplish what should be very fast MIDI editing work on dozens to hundreds of tracks.

_______________________________

[Shibboleth]

re #1) TRACK SELECTION for MIDI EDITING

Thank you for your tip. Shift-G to enter the MIDI edit window does the trick.

I've been highlighting and selecting multiple tracks in the Tracks Overview, then double clicking them to open them in the MIDI edit window, which has not been working. Instead, I only see one of the selected tracks. (I was already set up for a single MIDI edit window, as you suggested).

Any reason why DP doesn't open ALL of the selections you've made when you double click, but does when you use the keyboard shortcut? Is it possible to override this behavior or default setting?

[Shooshie]

re #1) TRACK SELECTION for MIDI EDITING

Thank you for your tip. Shift-G to enter the MIDI edit window does the trick.

I've been highlighting and selecting multiple tracks in the Tracks Overview, then double clicking them to open them in the MIDI edit window, which has not been working. Instead, I only see one of the selected tracks. (I was already set up for a single MIDI edit window, as you suggested).

Any reason why DP doesn't open ALL of the selections you've made when you double click, but does when you use the keyboard shortcut? Is it possible to override this behavior or default setting?

All I can say is that it works as it works. Just use the keyboard command to get what you want. Double-clicking is much older than the keyboard command, in terms of when each was available to us. Perhaps it would have required rewriting code that would have brought down a sh*tstorm of inter-connected problems. I don't know.

Shooshie

[Dan Worley]

There are plenty of reasons to want to edit multiple tracks and draw that data in simultaneously. I do it ALL the time in Cubase and it speeds up workflow tremendously. It's insanely simple to do in Cubase, and I'm at a loss as to why DP8 doesn't seem to allow this. This is part of my frustration on this platform, as the MIDI editing lacks a lot of features that I have on the other rig.

This may help, or not.

As far was drawing CC data to multiple tracks at once, you might want to get into the manual and check out Track Groups and all that's involved with that.

Track Groups
Track Group Window
Temporary Track Groups
Suspending Track Grouping
Set Temporary Group Type (hint: you're going to want it set to Custom)
Temporarily Group Selection
Temporarily Group Selected Tracks
etc...

Also, go in the Commands Window and do a search for "Group" and assign key commands to what you may need. The last twelve or so things at the bottom of that list can be useful to you.

Is there a way to simply use a key command (<, >, etc) to cycle up/down through my selections for editing purposes? Not the vertically adjacent tracks in the Selection window or Tracks view.

I'm looking for a solution to cycle between my currently selected tracks. For example: If I select a Piano (track #5), several Strings (track #225, 226, 275), some synths (tracks #456, 507), etc, these tracks are nowhere near each other within the overall template.

I need the ability to work fast, and that requires being able to quickly flip between the selected MIDI data and instruments, edit them, copy/paste, or even draw the data across all of the currently selected if I need to.

I don't think there is a way to go through the tracks like that with command keys. It would be nice.

When working with track lists, you can isolate a track very quickly by Option clicking on it. I find that useful sometimes when I'm rifling through tracks. The Option key does a lot of things like that in DP.

Good luck.

[Shooshie]

re #3) Copying and paste simply isn't a viable solution for this scenario and is tedious. Here's why: It's quick to Opt-Click and drag MIDI copies in the Tracks window. However, it copies everything, and I am often just looking for a quick MIDI CC copy. I'm also not crazy about the need to go back and froth between multiple window views to copy JUST the CC data, and accomplish what should be a straight forward "pencil tool job" in the MIDI edit window.

If you have specific data selected from the MIDI Graphic Edit window, then you will be able to find it and drag it alone from the Tracks Overview Window. It's not the clearest thing in the world at first, but once you kind of learn where to look, you'll see that it's very easy to do. This is one of those things that most people don't know about.

As for going between windows for such things, I leave my windows open at full screen, each in its own space, via Spaces and Mission Control. It's not a work solution for everyone, but it's how I work, and it's been a part of my workflow since DP 4.5 or 5; I don't remember exactly when that feature came out in Apple's OS X. I drag my windows to their respective spaces, and it facilitates rapid switching between windows. The best part is that the windows remain as you left them, so there's no resizing or re-selecting tracks to do. It's especially helpful for the Mixing Board. Here is a video I made about this. Maybe you'll find it interesting. There is one thing I left out of the video: keep the Control Panel floating, so that it follows you from space to space. You can't do that if you work in the "Full Screen" mode, where the control panel becomes part of the display. Just watch the video for more explanation.

There's a second consideration here, as well, which is template size. Simply put, I'm working in HUGE templates, and dragging this content to a desired location is messy. Hundreds upon hundreds of tracks, with folders, nested folders, etc...

Part of the annoyance I'm experiencing with DP8 here is the inconsistency of concept execution. Here's what I mean. I can RECORD ENABLE multiple MIDI tracks and play the CC and Notes in across multiple tracks simultaneously. But DP won't allow me to engage in similar behavior while editing in the actual MIDI edit window.

WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR REDUX:

What I'm looking for is the ability to edit and draw in any/all MIDI CC data across multiple tracks at the same time. Is that actually possible in DP8?

In Cubase, I will often open up multiple sets of MIDI tracks. They could be from varied parts of the template (often not adjacent to one another). In Cubase, the MIDI editor allows you to write, draw, or adjust Any/All MIDI data on ALL of the tracks at the same time, or to quickly cycle between the currently selected tracks and edit them individually. I find it's very easy to draw in MIDI CC data across all of the elected tracks, then cycle and make minor adjustments them to flavor as needed.

If you are drawing phrases as I do, the last thing on earth you'd want is to try to do that to multiple tracks at one time. It's MUCH easier to draw one phrase, then use the commands we talked about earlier to shift your selection up one visible track to draw the next phrase.

There are plenty of reasons to want to edit multiple tracks and draw that data in simultaneously. I do it ALL the time in Cubase and it speeds up workflow tremendously. It's insanely simple to do in Cubase, and I'm at a loss as to why DP8 doesn't seem to allow this. This is part of my frustration on this platform, as the MIDI editing lacks a lot of features that I have on the other rig.

Oh, I understand what you're looking for, but I just don't work that way, myself. I opened DP and went looking for a way to do what you're asking. Never having worked that way, I doubted it could be done. The good news is that yes, it CAN be done. Quite easily, as it turns out.

First of all, to clear up a disagreement in our experiences: the method of moving a selection from one track to the next, as I described in my previous post and in the Tips Sheet post, DOES INDEED move the selection from one VISIBLE track to the next VISIBLE track. If you set up a few non-adjacent selected tracks, then select a note in one of them, then apply the commands I told you about (Move Selection Up/Down), you will see that the selection jumps from one visible track to the next in the MIDI Graphic Edit Window. Intervening tracks (non-visible) are skipped, even though they are adjacent. The purpose of this exercise is to take a MIDI event selection, such as a quarter note, or an entire phrase, and turn it into a RANGE selection.

What follows is a method for setting up and editing a group of tracks simultaneously.

• 1) In the Mixing Board, invoke CONTROL-N (Mini-menu: New Track Group)
  2) Click on the fader of each track you want to include in this group. As you click, each channel's fader area will become outlined in green. When you have included all the tracks you want for this edit, hit ENTER or RETURN. A Group Window will pop up.
  3) Name the group whatever you think will described it best, such as "Strings CC Edit."
  4) Set up the parameters for this group as shown in my screenshot.

Continuing our list...

• 5) Close the group window and note that in the Consolidated Windows you can select a sidebar window "Track Groups" which contains a list of all the groups you have created. Those groups can be activated or deactivated with the little button/light on the left of each entry in the list, in the column entitled "ON." When turned on, the group will respond to edits identically. But there is one key step: the selection must be a RANGE selection. So...
  6) Use the "Move Selection Up" (or "Move Selection Down") commands. This will move the selection to the next visible track in the MIDI Graphic Editor Window, simultaneously turning it into a range selection.
  7) Now, if you've set up the group as I did, you will be able to edit one track and have it perform the identical edit on all members of the group, regardless of whether their continuous data is identical. It's acting on the range, not the individual events.

Note in my picture that several string tracks have an identical V-shaped edit in the Breath Control line. These were done with a single pass of the Reshape Tool in one MIDI track. I could not see what was happening in the other tracks, but I could be confident that they'd be following the same edit pass.

Also note the importance of naming your groups. This is so you can activate the group that edits the tracks you want.

One more thing: Once you've set up a group, you no longer need to select each of those tracks in the Tracks Overview before editing. Just activate the group, then select any member of the group, and all the group members' tracks will be selected. It's almost as good as saving a selection! When you use SHIFT-G to go to the MIDI Graphic Editor Window, only the group will be visible, but you still must convert to a range selection before the edit will work. One tap of the "Move Selection Down" (or Up) command will do the trick.

And let's amend one other thing. In the Preferences/Editing/MIDI Editing, for the way you want to work, you should also check the box beside "Hide other tracks when opening to selection." Now, when you invoke SHIFT-G, it will open only to the selected tracks. Double-clicking a track will still open ONLY that track, but you can edit it (as a range selection, of course) and it will edit the other group members as per your settings. The other tracks do not need to be visible in the MIDI Graphic Editor.

Finally, my last word on THAT subject: it also works in the Sequence Editor, as long as you do it as a range selection and use the Reshape Tool. And while we're speaking of the Reshape Tool, here are the commands for the tools on a "Cheat Sheet" you can place in a stand beside your computer:

re #2) Thank you for the link to the Digital Performer tips sheet!

I've looked into the Commands selection. What you're describing, however, sounds like the ability to quickly cycle up/down through the available MIDI tracks in Track Selection sidebar window.

Is there a way to simply use a key command (<, >, etc) to cycle up/down through my selections for editing purposes? Not the vertically adjacent tracks in the Selection window or Tracks view.

I'm looking for a solution to cycle between my currently selected tracks. For example: If I select a Piano (track #5), several Strings (track #225, 226, 275), some synths (tracks #456, 507), etc, these tracks are nowhere near each other within the overall template.

I need the ability to work fast, and that requires being able to quickly flip between the selected MIDI data and instruments, edit them, copy/paste, or even draw the data across all of the currently selected if I need to.

I find that I'm spending an inordinate amount of time trying to find and select material, as well as jump around in window views in order to accomplish what should be very fast MIDI editing work on dozens to hundreds of tracks.

_______________________________

I'm out of time, and I'm not sure how else to answer your questions, but if I think of anything, I'll come back and post some more. If you have the motivation to use DP, you'll figure out ways of working fast.

Shooshie

[frankf]

You should look into Custom Groups. You can select all tracks of a group by selecting one of them and much more including some editing. Also, there are times when editing MIDI in the Sequence window is a better option. Personally I do almost all my MIDI editing in the SE.

[Shibboleth]

Thank you guys for your thoughtful answers and workflow solutions to my question. I'm going to look into them this morning.

I really appreciate it.

[Dan Worley]

Here's how you can write CC to multiple tracks quickly. The Custom group takes some set up, but once it's set up, it's set up.

1. Select the tracks you want in the TO and hit SHIFT G, or just highlight the tracks in the Tracks List of the ME.

2. Click the "W" key twice (WW). That will put the selected tracks in a temporary group. (Note: WW actually puts the visible tracks in a group, but the ones you selected are the ones visible to the ME, that's the trick of it.)

3. Draw the CC.

Note 1: You set the Temporary Group Type from the mini menu of the Track Groups Window, or you can use key commands.

Note 2: There are some limitations to how grouping works with CC. Deleting a range of CC doesn't work through a group, for example. That seems weird and wrong to me.

This is all you need in the group.

[Shooshie]

Just remember that the Groups work on range selections. If you select some CC's with your mouse, you'll need to convert that to range selection, and the method I described above (and on the Tips Sheet post) is for me the quickest way to do that. As I have my commands set up, it's just OPTION-SHIFT-UPArrow or DOWNArrow. Instantly, the selection becomes a range selection, and then any editing you do on one track will be done throughout the group.

Shooshie