V-Rack automation and preset selection

[dewdman42]

I'm trying to figure out a clever way to automate V-Rack instruments a bit more. Some plugins provide complete MIDI-learn facilities; some don't, particularly FX. I think it is possible with wrappers like Plogue Bidule to map any incoming CC to any internal plugin parameter.

Thus, it is possible to put a plugin on a V-Rack, inside Bidule; map a CC to the parameter of choice, in Bidule...and then automate the track on the normal sequence that is sending MIDI to the V-Rack.

I am wondering if there are other similar approaches in DP for doing this MIDI learn wrapping, without having to buy and setup Bidule for it? Would be a nice feature add to DP V-Racks to include MIDI learn mapping as a built in feature of V-Racks!

Second to that question, how can I have a V-Rack'd plugin that will change the preset its using depending on which normal sequence is using it, or change mid song? Obviously, if the plugin has the capability to respond to MIDI program change to select presets then great, but an awful lot of them do not. So again, how can I setup a v-racked plugin so that when receiving program change or some other MIDI, it will then choose a preset for that plugin? I have a feeling Bidule can do this also, though I don't know for sure, but maybe there is a simpler and more streamlined wrapper of some kind out there that handles these two tasks without having to go to chemistry class to figure it out?

[Shooshie]

I'm trying to figure out a clever way to automate V-Rack instruments a bit more. Some plugins provide complete MIDI-learn facilities; some don't, particularly FX. I think it is possible with wrappers like Plogue Bidule to map any incoming CC to any internal plugin parameter.

Thus, it is possible to put a plugin on a V-Rack, inside Bidule; map a CC to the parameter of choice, in Bidule...and then automate the track on the normal sequence that is sending MIDI to the V-Rack.

The only ways to automate V-Racks are through an Aux track or Audio track used as the instrument's output (it's audio and audio plugins that you're automating) or through MIDI Learn for actual parameters on the V-Rack. Again, this fits the model of the V-Rack: to emulate a hardware rack. You can't "automate" a hardware instrument except through MIDI controllers, which is exactly like a V-Rack.

Many instruments have excellent MIDI Learn capabilities. Wallander Instruments and Mach Five 3 allow you to automate literally anything you can click on. Some of the MOTU synths also allow that. Tassman4 and UltraAnalog synths by AAS allow complete MIDI Learn automation.

I am wondering if there are other similar approaches in DP for doing this MIDI learn wrapping, without having to buy and setup Bidule for it? Would be a nice feature add to DP V-Racks to include MIDI learn mapping as a built in feature of V-Racks!

I haven't seen MIDI Learn "wrapping," and I don't know if it's possible or practical. It seems like it would require the instrument maker to cooperate, but I don't know that for sure. Do any DAWs have such a thing? It seems like someone said Logic does that. Is that true? Is it completely instrument-agnostic? That is, it doesn't require the instrument-maker's cooperation?

Second to that question, how can I have a V-Rack'd plugin that will change the preset its using depending on which normal sequence is using it, or change mid song? Obviously, if the plugin has the capability to respond to MIDI program change to select presets then great, but an awful lot of them do not. So again, how can I setup a v-racked plugin so that when receiving program change or some other MIDI, it will then choose a preset for that plugin? I have a feeling Bidule can do this also, though I don't know for sure, but maybe there is a simpler and more streamlined wrapper of some kind out there that handles these two tasks without having to go to chemistry class to figure it out?

I don't know of any instrument whose presets you can access through V-Racks, possibly excepting Modulo, by MOTU, which is one of the bundled instruments in DP. It seems like (and I'm basing this on a very hazy memory from about 6 years ago) the way Modulo's banks are set up, it becomes possible to access them in a V-Rack. Don't quote me on that; I may be wrong. But I have a demo that I made in which I switched instruments on the fly, and since I always work in V-Racks, I'm thinking that's what I was doing and why I made the demo. (I can't imagine me making a demo of switching instruments on the fly unless there was something unusual about it.)

So again, the answer is that it requires instrument makers to participate and design their preset banks for access.

For me, switching instruments in V-Racks has always been the simplest of simple: make another instrument for each sound that I want, then drag parts to those tracks as necessary. Not the answer you want, of course, but that's what we got.

By the way, it's easy to add the contents of a V-Rack into a sequence. Just drag the V-Rack out of the Chunks Window and into your Tracks Overview Window. It will add all V-Rack tracks and instruments to the sequence. That's another reason to keep your V-Racks small and numerous rather than one massive rack.

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

I am wondering if there are other similar approaches in DP for doing this MIDI learn wrapping, without having to buy and setup Bidule for it? Would be a nice feature add to DP V-Racks to include MIDI learn mapping as a built in feature of V-Racks!

I haven't seen MIDI Learn "wrapping," and I don't know if it's possible or practical. It seems like it would require the instrument maker to cooperate, but I don't know that for sure. Do any DAWs have such a thing? It seems like someone said Logic does that. Is that true? Is it completely instrument-agnostic? That is, it doesn't require the instrument-maker's cooperation?

What is MIDI wrapping?

[bayswater]

I don't know of any instrument whose presets you can access through V-Racks, possibly excepting Modulo, by MOTU, which is one of the bundled instruments in DP

IIRC, you can create Banks of 127 presets in Kontakt, and use Program Change messages to select them.

[dewdman42]

The only ways to automate V-Racks are through an Aux track or Audio track used as the instrument's output (it's audio and audio plugins that you're automating) or through MIDI Learn for actual parameters on the V-Rack. Again, this fits the model of the V-Rack: to emulate a hardware rack.

Yea the audio automation is not what I'm referring to. Obviously you can route the audio from a V-Rack track back to AUX on a normal sequence and automate volume, pan, EQ, etc. but that is not accessing the plugin's parameters, such as filters for sweeping, etc..

You can't "automate" a hardware instrument except through MIDI controllers, which is exactly like a V-Rack.

Right we have to use MIDI!

Many instruments have excellent MIDI Learn capabilities. Wallander Instruments and Mach Five 3 allow you to automate literally anything you can click on. Some of the MOTU synths also allow that. Tassman4 and UltraAnalog synths by AAS allow complete MIDI Learn automation.

Some do. Some don't. That's what I'm trying to solve is for the ones that don't. AAS Chromaphone, for example, does not. No MIDI learn. Some of the MOTU plugins don't. There are others, particularly many non-instruments. This shows up as an issue in two ways. For one, you can't automate those plugins on a V-Rack. For another, its not possible to use your cool MIDI controller with a zillion knobs to play with the plugin interactively, even when on a normal sequence track.

DP still has access to all of the plugin's parameters for automation on those plugins that don't provide MIDI learn, but only when the plugin is on a normal sequence track. When so, then you can pull up a list of all parameters of a particular plugin and insert automation events, draw parabolic curves, etc... in the sequence window for any of those parameters on that track, for normal sequences that is. But you still can't use your cool MIDI controller to do it, you have to draw the events in the sequence window. And since there is no MIDI automation possibility, you can't automate those plugins on a V-Rack.

But, there is no reason why CC's can't be mapped to plugin parameters directly by DP, including in V-Racks, I wish it did that. Supposedly Ableton Live and Logic can both do this at the DAW level; assign certain MIDI messages to known plugin parameters which have been exposed to the DAW, the same ones I mentioned above that can be drawn into the sequence window for plugin automation. I believe Sonar also does this, maybe others. The main motivation for those DAW's is to make it possible for a MIDI controller to be able to control any parameter from any plugin, even the ones that don't have MIDI learn.

In the case of DP, this would also be useful for the same reason but it would also have the added bonus of being able to automate plugins on V-Racks by means of MIDI, including those plugins that don't have MIDI learn.

See what I mean?

In any case, since DP currently does not provide this feature, one work around is to put plogue bidule on that V-rack track and put the desired plugin inside Bidule, then Bidule has these kinds of facilities for mapping CC's to plugin automation. It actually has to provide that since even on a normal sequence track if you put a plugin inside bidule, the DAW can't see all the plugin parameters for normal automation as I mentioned above. The only see's Bidule's parameters. So Bidule provides a mapping mechanism that allows you to map Bidule's generic numbered parameters to underlying plugin parameters, or you can use MIDI CC's and have them mapped. Turns out you can use this on the V-rack situation as well, but its quite complicated to do this, so I'm wondering if there is a lighter weight alternative, barring MOTU building this feature into DP, which would be a nice addition.

I haven't seen MIDI Learn "wrapping," and I don't know if it's possible or practical. It seems like it would require the instrument maker to cooperate, but I don't know that for sure. Do any DAWs have such a thing? It seems like someone said Logic does that. Is that true? Is it completely instrument-agnostic? That is, it doesn't require the instrument-maker's cooperation?

As I said, a lot of other DAW's do it. Bidule does it also, at the expense of added complexity and processing overhead. If the DAW does it, then the plugin doesn't have to be rehosted inside another host like Bidule, only has to map CC's to plugin parameters, and no involvement is required from the plugin manufacturer to do this. The plugin parameters are already exposed and available directly for plugin automation, without any MIDI at all, DP can already do that. All it has to do is provide a way to map MIDI events over to those exposed plugin parameters, as Ableton, Logic, Sonar and others do already.

I don't know of any instrument whose presets you can access through V-Racks, possibly excepting Modulo, by MOTU, which is one of the bundled instruments in DP. It seems like (and I'm basing this on a very hazy memory from about 6 years ago) the way Modulo's banks are set up, it becomes possible to access them in a V-Rack. Don't quote me on that; I may be wrong. But I have a demo that I made in which I switched instruments on the fly, and since I always work in V-Racks, I'm thinking that's what I was doing and why I made the demo. (I can't imagine me making a demo of switching instruments on the fly unless there was something unusual about it.)

So again, the answer is that it requires instrument makers to participate and design their preset banks for access.

Uhmm, if you have an instrument in a V-Rack then you can pull up a preset or it would not be of much use. The question is how to get the V-Rack to "remember" the preset you want pulled up. I would guess that you pull up a preset in the instrument and then whatever is the last one you pulled up, that will be saved with the project file. Open the project file and it will have the same preset as you left off.

But since you are probably sharing that V-Rack with different sequences, you might need different presets for different sequences. See what I mean? Again, need a way to send some kind of MIDI from the sequence to the V-Rack, that will map to a specific preset. That can absolutely be done by DP without any involvement by the plugin manufacturer. Its just like the CC mapping mentioned above to plugin parameters, except instead of CC, you would assign a program change number to a specific preset.

Since DP currently does not do this...

Bidule might be able to do this, but I'm sure it will be complicated and not worth the hassle. Just wondering if anyone knows of any other plugin wrappers that are simpler then Bidule and might do this.

[dewdman42]

I don't know of any instrument whose presets you can access through V-Racks, possibly excepting Modulo, by MOTU, which is one of the bundled instruments in DP

IIRC, you can create Banks of 127 presets in Kontakt, and use Program Change messages to select them.

yea its awesome that Kontakt can do that! That is the preset equivalent of MIDI learn for selecting presets. Now if we can figure out how to do that for plugins which do not provide this capability, and the vast majority do not provide this one. Would be awesome if DP did that, I personally think it would make V-Racks even more useful. But i'm not holding my breathe on that one.

[bayswater]

yea its awesome that Kontakt can do that! That is the preset equivalent of MIDI learn for selecting presets.

I suppose VI designers are reluctant to do it because a new patch usually means new samples, and that means loading from disk. The old synths didn't usually have to do more than load a small set of parameters.

Now if we can figure out how to do that for plugins which do not provide this capability, and the vast majority do not provide this one. Would be awesome if DP did that, I personally think it would make V-Racks even more useful. But i'm not holding my breathe on that one.

Perhaps brute force would be to link the Program Change message to a macro to be executed by something like Quickeys or Keyboard Maestro.

[BKK-OZ]

But since you are probably sharing that V-Rack with different sequences, you might need different presets for different sequences. See what I mean? Again, need a way to send some kind of MIDI from the sequence to the V-Rack, that will map to a specific preset. That can absolutely be done by DP without any involvement by the plugin manufacturer. Its just like the CC mapping mentioned above to plugin parameters, except instead of CC, you would assign a program change number to a specific preset.

Since DP currently does not do this...

...this is why I don't use V-Racks.

While I use the same VI's on different sequences (on different pieces), I use different presets every time. In other words, I don't have a VI/preset combo that I use for Bass, Rhythm, etc. I might use Maschine for drums, but I change sounds and patterns for each piece, same for bass, etc.

So for me, V-Racks don't offer anything really useful. If there was some way I could set up V-Rack, then move to a sequence and have the V-Rack load in the presets for that sequence, I would use them I guess, but as it is, I just do it the old fashioned way.

[frankf]

Maybe I'm not understanding this, but whether a VI is in a v-rack or not has nothing to do with say loading a multi or bank or instrument into Kontakt. If the VI can do this and if the MIDI control for the instrument is set up properly, a MIDI command from sent from DP could load new presets in a VI. No v-rack is involved. I used to do this all the time with a set of Roland s760s loading them all up by playing a MIDI track that had the commands to load banks into the s760s. BTW you can set up 2 instances of an instrument like Kontakt, and have one loaded with seq1 instruments and the other loaded with seq2 instruments. Even put them in 2 v-racks labeled seq1 and seq2. If resources are a problem, deactivate v-rack for seq2 when working on seq1 and vise-versa. DP has a LOT of flexibility with this.


Frank Ferrucci

[dewdman42]

That only works for VI's that support program change commands to select presets. Many do not. The normal way most people use VI's is that when you put a VI into a track and pull up a preset and save the project, the set of parameter values which were loaded by that preset, ie, the current state of the plugin, are saved in the project. Some VI's will respond to program change to switching presets, some will not. Obviously something like Kontakt is more forward thinking and provides this capability, but a lot of other VI's do not, they presume that you won't need to do that under most normal DAW situations. you'll just save the project and the state of the plugin parameters will be saved with it. It only matters with V-Racks where you are sharing a particularly plugin instance between different sequences.

Anyway, this is a much smaller issue then the CC automation mentioned earlier. I think most times if you're using a synth with different presets, just put two instances of the synth on the sequence and be done with it. V Racks are a lot more useful with sample libraries and stuff like that, so basically you'd want a V Rack to just use the presets you want and don't monkey around with trying to change them. Just allocate more instances of the plugin and keep the preset always static there...that's really all that can be done now, unless the plugin is able to respond to program change directly in the plugin.

[Shooshie]

I always find it odd when folks say they won't use V-Racks because it doesn't do one thing or another. Considering what it DOES do, I'd say the balance is in favor of using it. But as they say, different strokes for different folks.

Of course you can load presets in V-Rack instruments, but only through the interface, not through a keyboard command or automation command, EXCEPT in the case of those instruments that are designed for CC bank switching. (and I wish they all were)

This is an area that MOTU needs to investigate more fully. I like the idea of a V-Rack automation wrapper. DP can read every parameter for automation. Apparently, the reason it can't in a V-Rack, is because it's designed to run only one chunk at a time, and a V-Rack is a chunk. Seems like some creative programming could solve that issue. I say automate the V-Racks, and especially the bank-selecting or preset loading/saving.

Shooshie

[dewdman42]

Well I think V-Racks aren't currently supporting automation, only because they are not designed to have any time based data. They are just a mixer...not a sequencer too. A V-Rack is really not like a normal chunk in that regard.

If you create a normal instrument track on a sequence, you can insert the automation events on that time based sequence. The only thing a V-Rack instrument can do, on the other hand, is respond to events coming from somewhere else. Presently, the only kind of events that can be passed from sequence to V-Rack are MIDI events and audio streams.

Any other data that is not a MIDI stream or audio stream, does not pass between sequences and V-Racks. Maybe they could somehow expose those non-MIDI automation parameters and allow sequences to record those non-MIDI events on a sequence MIDI track and to send them to the same V-Rack instrument that is receiving all the other MIDI. The V-Rack instance can certainly respond to these events, but the issue is where to record the events over time...ie...back on the sequence track. But either you have to put non-MIDI events on a MIDI track, or create a new track type to record non-MIDI automation. This routing of non-MIDI automation data between sequence and V-Rack is actually neccessary for non-instrument plugins which don't have any MIDI input to them at all.

But on the other hand if you want to use a MIDI controller to tweak knobs on some kind of non-MIDI FX plugin, then DP needs to provide the possibility to accept MIDI "somewhere" and send non-MIDI automation events to the FX plugin. Basically DP just doesn't have anything like that for V-racks. You can store non-MIDI automation events on sequence instrument tracks and they will do what they are supposed to do, but there is no facility for controlling that with MIDI and since its not MIDI, it can't be sent to a V-Rack right now.

[Shooshie]

Well I think V-Racks aren't currently supporting automation, only because they are not designed to have any time based data. They are just a mixer...not a sequencer too. A V-Rack is really not like a normal chunk in that regard.

They aren't designed to have any time based data in them, and yet they accept MIDI events. No reason why they shouldn't accept automation events, too. It's just another track. The track's data tells it to play MIDI events, and it responds by playing notes or responding to MIDI Control Data. Why not automation? MOTU could easily program "virtual tracks" to contain the automation data.

If you create a normal instrument track on a sequence, you can insert the automation events on that time based sequence. The only thing a V-Rack instrument can do, on the other hand, is respond to events coming from somewhere else. Presently, the only kind of events that can be passed from sequence to V-Rack are MIDI events and audio streams.

The instrument isn't the track; it just resides there. The track's automation data could be pointed to the instrument in the V-Rack, too. I think it's time to make it do that. If programmers of instruments all were willing to incorporate MIDI Learn into their apps, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but some of those programmers are forever going to be stubborn and resistant to adding that to their perfect little creations, so we're never going to see complete compliance, even if MOTU made it a rule for instruments to work with DP.

Any other data that is not a MIDI stream or audio stream, does not pass between sequences and V-Racks. Maybe they could somehow expose those non-MIDI automation parameters and allow sequences to record those non-MIDI events on a sequence MIDI track and to send them to the same V-Rack instrument that is receiving all the other MIDI. The V-Rack instance can certainly respond to these events, but the issue is where to record the events over time...ie...back on the sequence track. But either you have to put non-MIDI events on a MIDI track, or create a new track type to record non-MIDI automation. This routing of non-MIDI automation data between sequence and V-Rack is actually neccessary for non-instrument plugins which don't have any MIDI input to them at all.

Currently, automation in MIDI tracks is only editable in the Sequence Editor, and then only if you select the layer for that particular data type. There's no reason why it couldn't use those layers for V-Rack automation, too. I think I understand why they didn't do that: multiple MIDI tracks may point to the same instrument, and you can't have competing automation for the same track. But why not have the same data appear in ALL MIDI tracks assigned to a particular instrument? A change in one is visible in all of them, because the layers are merely pointers to a single virtual track where the automation is taking place. Automation for individual instruments within an instance of, say, Kontakt, would still have to be done through MIDI Learn, but global automation for Kontakt would appear in layers visible in any MIDI track assigned to that instrument.

I don't know; maybe it's not so easy to work out, after all. That MIDI Learn Wrapper is starting to sound more and more attractive!

Shooshie

[dewdman42]

Currently, automation in MIDI tracks is only editable in the Sequence Editor, and then only if you select the layer for that particular data type.

Yep. Well one clarification. MIDI tracks can record MIDI automation. Audio and instrument tracks can record plugin parameter automation, but only by drawing them there, you can't currently use any physical hardware device to record those automations. You can't record MIDI automation on the audio track. You can't record non-MIDI automation events on a MIDI track.

( For those following along, create an audio track, insert a plugin on that track, then go to the sequence window; right click on the track lane, go to insert-> under the sub menu you will see the name of the plugin as another sub menu, go there and see a list of the plugin parameters that can be automated, select one, then use the various pencil tools to draw on the audio track lane. Maybe there is an easier way, but I don't know of it right now. )

There's no reason why it couldn't use those layers for V-Rack automation, too. I think I understand why they didn't do that: multiple MIDI tracks may point to the same instrument, and you can't have competing automation for the same track.

There is no problem with multiple MIDI tracks pointing to the same plugin on a V-Rack or anywhere else. You can have multiple MIDI tracks pointing to one instrument on a normal sequence track too. No problemo. Its no different then multiple MIDI tracks sending mod wheel to the same instrument at the same time. Might not like the results that way, but there is no technical problem with it.

But why not have the same data appear in ALL MIDI tracks assigned to a particular instrument? A change in one is visible in all of them, because the layers are merely pointers to a single virtual track where the automation is taking place.

Oh that's an interesting idea, but remember the automation is time data. It has no place on a timeless V-rack, its rather part of a sequence. Its just a matter of storing that time based automation data on the sequence somehow and sending it to the sound making device over on the V-Rack through routing.

Automation for individual instruments within an instance of, say, Kontakt, would still have to be done through MIDI Learn, but global automation for Kontakt would appear in layers visible in any MIDI track assigned to that instrument.

Kontakt is an interesting case. I just did a test with it to find out. I loaded up some kontakt instruments and then tried the test I described above. When I tried to insert an automation parameter, it brought up a dialog box with around 500 parameters, but only the first 10-20 or so had names that made any sense and they were specific to the instruments. The other 480 had numbers only, no names.

So the non-MIDI automation can be done with Kontakt instruments it would seem, though I don't know what those 500 unamed parameters were. Maybe those are empty "slots" that Kontakt reserves for instruments and then instruments fill up the slots. I did notice that my scarbee stuff did not seem to fill any of the slots though, so for Scarbee I would have to use MIDI learn, which thankfully Kontakt provides. And by the way, when MIDI learn is provided by the plugin, DP can automate it on a V-Rack just fine.

I don't know; maybe it's not so easy to work out, after all. That MIDI Learn Wrapper is starting to sound more and more attractive!

hehehe. I was thinking about it more last night. I forgot that pretty much all non-instrument audio FX have no MIDI programmed into them at all. So not only will they not have MIDI learn in them, but there will not be any route for MIDI to be sent to them from a sequence MIDI track. DP only enables that MIDI route if the plugin has somehow enabled MIDI input for it, which I venture a guess, most audio FX plugins have not. A MIDI wrapper though, could setup the route by enabling MIDI input on itself, process MIDI data and convert to normal plugin parameter data for the underlying plugin, but we the users would have to define the MIDI map to use in each case. For example, if you want to automate delay time of a delay FX, then at the receiving end, ie, in the V-Rack; we'd have to be able to configure that we want CC#89 to be mapped to "delay time" parameter of our plugin. Its like MIDI learn, but done above the plugin, since the plugin doens't provide MIDI learn.

Then someone would just need a normal MIDI track on the sequence to send over automation data.

I think having DP become more aware of non-MIDI automation data routes and ability send that across to the plugin without converting back and forth to MIDI, would be a lot more eleagant and doable. Secondary to that, if DP could also map incoming MIDI events from an external MIDI device into non-MIDI automation data...that would also be useful, but in terms of routing the data between sequences and V-Rack'd plugins, I think just making DP able to route non-MIDI automation events that way would be the most straightforward and elegant thing to do.

Barring that, a solution using 3rd party tools such as Bidule can only be done using some kind of MIDI trickery to route those automation events over to the V-Rack plugin where it has to either be remapped by the wrapper, or the actual plugin has MIDI learn. The time based recording of those MIDI events can then be on any standard sequence mid track and the MIDI routing is already provided.

[Shooshie]

I think you're missing the point about V-Racks not being time-based tracks, and therefore not being able to accept automation. The V-Rack is a processor. It can process anything sent to it. It doesn't need to know about time, other than what's necessary to do its processing. MOTU can add a virtual track to feed automation to it.

That virtual track and all its data layers could then be made visible in the Sequence Editor by showing up as extra layers in each MIDI track that feeds that track. The data would not be MIDI; it would be a layer of automation data, like the ones we see in Aux tracks, which are visible in the Tracks Overview Window or Sequence Editor.

Any MIDI track that feeds a particular instrument would see the same virtual track layers as the others who also feed that track, and the virtual layers would be available to edit, but not unique to that track. "Shared" with all tracks belonging to that instrument.

What doesn't exist now may be made to exist. It could be added as virtual layers within other tracks.

There are undoubtedly kinks to work out. I trust MOTU's engineers to solve this problem elegantly without changing our workflow and without adding superfluous tracks to deal with. Just virtual layers in existing tracks.

As for MIDI Learn wrapper, it could work for audio plugins on a V-Rack, because it's a translator. DP already knows all the parameters of the plugin, and already creates layers for its automation data. MIDI Learn would provide access to those layers via a translator that MOTU creates for that purpose. It would show you a list, and there would be a column for MIDI Commands for that track, and you'd type a command into each track (or feed it to it). Then, controller data of that type would be translated within THAT TRACK to apply to plugins that are assigned to the V-Rack's inserts.

Again, MOTU, kinks, work-it-out. I'm confident they could do it. But what would it take to get them to?

Shooshie