Real Time Arpeggiator

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swpowe
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Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by swpowe »

I seem to be having a problem using the MIDI arpeggiator. If I try and use the grid for any kind of patter, it's never on the down beat. It's like it can't keep up and has to think so it's always delayed. Makes it pretty useless to me. Am I missing something here?
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Shooshie
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by Shooshie »

It's been a long, long time since I've used the arpeggiator, and I don't have DP open right now, but the first thing that occurred to me was wondering if you have a dot selected in your "beat." That is, are you calling a quarter note a beat? Or is it a dotted quarter?

I'll try to remember to take a look at that, next time I'm open to a MIDI project.

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swpowe
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by swpowe »

I don't have a dot selected. Just a standard 8th. Anyone else use the arpeggiator and get this figured out? I can't really seem to figure out why it would be designed that way unless you wanted it as a send so you always have the main track (covers the first note) and then the send covers the arp part...
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by GVernon »

In my entire life using DP I used to think this was only an issue with DP. I used to use Logic and thinking back to the Logic days, the Logic arpeggiator did the same exact thing. I could never figure out why. However for me, this issue only exists while I'm playing parts in. It isn't an issue after quantizing or anything. I still can't figure out why it happens though!
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Shooshie
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by Shooshie »

Would one of you describe a timeline of exactly what's happening?

Say, you press a key on your synth, a note plays, then the arpeggiator starts a little later?
Or, is it in playback? A note falls on the beat, but the note does not sound until a little after the beat?
Or the playback note sounds on time, but the arpeggiator doesn't kick in until a bit later?

Does it matter whether it's driving a hardware synth or a VI?

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swpowe
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by swpowe »

For me what happens is I play a note and I don't hear anything for a bit (seems to be the value of the arpeggiator) and then I hear the first not with everything that follows. What'd I'd expect is to play a note and hear it right away (like normal) and to hear the next note and the next note...as expected.

I don't have any hardware synths to try...sad I know. :)
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Shooshie
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by Shooshie »

That sounds like a bonafide bug. I'd call MOTU and tell them about it. It might even get on the next release!

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cuttime
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by cuttime »

What is the hardware buffer set to? It sounds like you may have some latency due to a high buffer.
Last edited by cuttime on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Shooshie
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by Shooshie »

cuttime wrote:What is hardware buffer set to? I sounds like you may have some latency due to a high buffer.

Bingo! Brilliant idea. Though he might have noticed that when playing without the arpeggiator.
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thracks
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by thracks »

swpowe wrote:For me what happens is I play a note and I don't hear anything for a bit (seems to be the value of the arpeggiator) and then I hear the first not with everything that follows. What'd I'd expect is to play a note and hear it right away (like normal) and to hear the next note and the next note...as expected.

I don't have any hardware synths to try...sad I know. :)
Your description is absolutely correct. For me, it's been this way since the arpeggiator was first introduced. Was it Performer 5? I can't recall, but I contacted MOTU support about it. If I recall (and this was a long time ago) they concluded that this was normal behavior for Performer.

Say you have an arp set to 8th notes. On the first downbeat you would expect the first note to sound and continue playing, and at the end of the first bar you would have heard 8 tones. In DP whatever the resolution of the arp you always miss the first value on the first downbeat. At the end of the bar you have only heard 7 tones because the arp starts on the first upbeat. Played live or recorded and quantized. Happens with MIDI hardware and soft synths, same result at any rate.

I really wish this was a bug but I think it is by design. My workaround was to shift the recorded MIDI notes early to compensate. Kind of a turn off. If I want to use an arpeggiator these days it's usually built in to the synth. Shame, because the one in DP is quite unique in it's capabilities. If anyone has a different take on this I'd love to hear it.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by stubbsonic »

I remember this coming up in a thread a while ago (maybe a year or two ago?).

I had assumed this was a problem with DP8, but it sounds like it is older. Too bad MOTU doesn't see it as problematic.
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Shooshie
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by Shooshie »

I'm pretty sure the arpeggiator has been there since at least the early 90s, because that's the first time I used it, as far as I can remember. (it's possible that I am remembering a hardware arpeggiator, though) I've used it a couple of times since then, but never for any reason other than to play around and hear what it does.

So, I tried it myself to see what the fuss is about. Indeed, there is a bug, but as with many bugs, it's complicated. In my experience, it only does what you're describing when the note attacks fall on the beat, or within the first metrical value from the beat. That is, if you've set the arpeggiator to run at 8th notes, and if your chord falls within the first 8th note of the beat, then the sound won't start until the 2nd 8th note.

If the attack falls anywhere after that 1st note-value, it will sound immediately.

Putting it more simply, the arpeggiator skips the first note of each beat of its run. (beat = sequence tempo set in DP control panel) If it is set for 32nd notes, it only skips the first 32nd of the beat. If the tempo is fast, you will hardly notice that. If the value is for larger notes, and the tempo is slow, it becomes a horrendous problem.

The workaround, if you're willing to use it, is to move your attacks even 1 tick before the beat, because when you move it backward, you put the attack in the zone where it always plays instantly. But if your attack has to come somewhere after the beat, yet not at the next entrance of the arpeggio, you're out of luck, because from 000 to 240 there is a dead zone. (at 8th note arpeggiator value, or 000 to 120 for 16th notes, 000 to 60 for 32nds, etc.) The dead-zone is only for attacks.

When playing live without any beat (the sequence is not playing) it's hit-or-miss, as apparently there is always a "beat" going internally for the arpeggiator. If you play a few chords and one does not play at first, it's because you struck it during the "attack dead-zone."

If the chord extends beyond the next beat, it continues to play without interruption, however there is a problem with the releases. If the arp value is large (quarter note, for example) and the tempo is slow, the arpeggiator continues to play until the final note is fully played. That can mean that you have a non-harmonic tone playing as much as a quarter note into the next chord. While I do not like the idea of cutting off notes once they have been sounded, they might make it optional for situations like that.

MOTU needs to fix this. This makes the arpeggiator unusable for certain applications, though for most general uses it's still just fine, because if the tempo is upbeat and the arp value is small, nobody will notice the tiny dead zone.

Shooshie
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alansende
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by alansende »

The workaround, if you're willing to use it, is to move your attacks even 1 tick before the beat, because when you move it backward, you put the attack in the zone where it always plays instantly.
Thanks, it worked!
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Re: Real Time Arpeggiator

Post by Saintmatthew »

Even with hardware synths, this could be an issue with internal arps if you were running synced to MIDI clock from any sequencer. If you play the whole chord on the beat, it's just not receiving it in time to know what to play. Now, on most external synths you could turn off sync and it wouldn't have the delay but it would inevitably drift, sometimes noticeably in a very short time. Maybe the DP arp is stuck being quantized/synced? I'll take a look. Over time I learned to play a split second before the beat when playing arps, even on external synths, so that they fired off properly.
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