Simultaneous playback at different tempos?

[larrysharp11]

Greetings!

For years I've been looking for a MIDI sequencer that can play (at least) 2 sequences simultaneously at different tempos. Can DP 8 do this? Maybe using chunks?

I know that most of the time it's convenient for a sequencer to automatically do the opposite - i.e. detect/correct tempos of various sequences/loops/etc. so that they play together "correctly". I am glad for this feature and most of the time that's what I want.

However, I also want to experiment with sequences at different tempos as a compositional technique. This was done in the "olden days" by people like Steve Reich in the piece Piano Phase. One "sequence" is played on the piano at two slightly different tempos - say 120 and 121 bpm. At first the two sequences sound in unison, then gradually they drift out of phase resulting in a flanging sound, then an echo/delay, etc. Eventually they get 180 degrees out of phase and start to come back together.

I did a "cover" of this piece years ago with a cassette 4-track machine, but have been looking for a MIDI sequencer that could do this. I know I could probably program something in Reaktor or Max/MSP or whatever, but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel if I can avoid it. I can't believe I'm the only weirdo who wants to do stuff like this.

Thanks!
Larry

[frankf]

Studio Vision. it's discontinued but can be found online.

[mikehalloran]

Studio Vision. it's discontinued but can be found online.

That and a G3 or G4 that can boot in OS 9 and you're in business.

I don't have Studio Vision Pro but I do keep a good G4 with OS 9.1/10.4 around for old stuff that won't work on my iMac or files that need to be converted first. Instead of a dedicated monitor, I use the VGA port on my 2nd monitor.

If you ask around, you can often get one free nowadays. If you are anywhere near my part of California, I'll give you the G4 in my garage.

[larrysharp11]

Thanks Frank! I was hoping for a current DAW; actually hoping that DP could do this, even if I have to coerce it against it's will/design, since I'd like to use it as my main DAW.

I do have an old G4 I could bring out of retirement but wasn't Studio Vision on OS 9? If so I'd have to retrograde back from whatever flavor of OS X it has on it...

ld

[Guitar Gaz]

Does this not work in the Song Window? I thought you could stack chunks which presumably have their own conductor tracks....but it appears not to work in that way when it comes to tempos.

So the only thing you can do is bounce the piece to audio which should then always run at the tempo you recorded at, and the other piece runs at a different tempo. Actually audio may be the best way as you can chop up into soundbites and sort out the bits that work together.

Don't get me started on Opcode Vision - really miss that program.....

[mikehalloran]

I do have an old G4 I could bring out of retirement but wasn't Studio Vision on OS 9?

Dual boot.

Insert an OS 9 CD, restart holding Command-D. Install OS 9. You do not have to partition your drive. Used Select Startup Disk to switch back and forth between OS.

[James Steele]

Thanks Frank! I was hoping for a current DAW; actually hoping that DP could do this, even if I have to coerce it against it's will/design, since I'd like to use it as my main DAW.

No current DAW can do this. So in fairness:

Pro Tools can't do simultaneous playback at different tempos.
Logic can't do simultaneous playback at different tempos.
Cubase can't do simultaneous playback at different tempos.
etc.

Sorry... just wanted to call them out by name. It's not just a "failing" of DP.

[FMiguelez]

However, I also want to experiment with sequences at different tempos as a compositional technique. This was done in the "olden days" by people like Steve Reich in the piece Piano Phase. One "sequence" is played on the piano at two slightly different tempos - say 120 and 121 bpm. At first the two sequences sound in unison, then gradually they drift out of phase resulting in a flanging sound, then an echo/delay, etc. Eventually they get 180 degrees out of phase and start to come back together.

I think you can achieve a similar effect by using the Scale Time command by applying different rates to different MIDI tracks.
What it does is it repositions the selected MIDI notes as they would be if the tempo changed by the specified amount, so think of it as a "virtual" alternative CT (minus the nice tempo graphics).

IIRC, there are a few ways of doing it, such as by percentage, ratios and a few others. This way you could make your tracks drift in a controlled manner.

It's not as easy as it would be with multiple tempi/conductor tracks, but you should definitely give it a shot.

[Guitar Gaz]

So the only thing you can do is bounce the piece to audio which should then always run at the tempo you recorded at, and the other piece runs at a different tempo. Actually audio may be the best way as you can chop up into soundbites and sort out the bits that work together.

Just to bump my own advice - I used this technique on a track with an audio recording of natural sounds against the music I was doing (at a different tempo) - and I was able to chop the natural sounds into soundbites and then could line them up with the track to see where they worked best. So this is the solution - even if its not possible with MIDI.

Of course you could record the MIDI tracks freehand without recourse to tempo or click track - presumably when played back together at the neutral tempo the timing differences would be there in the playing. Don't they call this "rubato"?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

FM beat me to the answer - scale time.

[Shooshie]

Just to be very clear:

James Steele is correct when he said that no DAW will do this, currently.

However, Guitar Gaz mentioned the only work-around that I know of that will accomplish the original poster's desired goals, then FMiguelez and MIDI Life Crisis gave you the key that makes it work.

I'll explain simply:

• 1) Create two chunks that both run at their desired tempos. Let's say that one of those is running at 100 bpm and the other at 75 bpm. I've chosen those two so that I don't have to use a calculator, but any two tempos would work.
  
  2) Now, using Scale Time, expand the slower chunk to 125% of its original size.
  
  3) Load them both into a Song Window, stacked vertically from the same starting point, and have it play at 100bpm

When you play the song, it only plays one tempo, but they come out relatively at their original tempos. You can change either tempo by scaling time in the original chunk. Edits in the original chunks will be reflected in the Song Window, which is merely playing those chunks simultaneously.

Sure, you could put both sequences into the same chunk, and forego the Song window altogether, but that gets messy. This keeps everything in its own place, making edits easy.

The Song Window is extremely easy to use, and very simple. I think it's the ideal work-around for this kind of thing.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Note: originally I made the mistake of saying SHRINK the slower chunk to 75% of its original size. Of course, it would be the opposite of that. (and I changed it to reflect that) So, you expand it 125% of its original size. The larger chunk takes longer to play, playing at 25% slower tempo.

If you read it and didn't catch the error, now you know.

Shoosh

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Alternately you could render the MIDI tracks separately in the desired tempi and playback the audio files simultaneously. Or... Record the MIDI tracks sans metronome (muting the one you're not working with) playing them at the tempo desired, when ready, unmute


Cacophonous bliss. or just minimalist nirvana.


Choose wisely. Or as the spell check suggested as I wrote this: choose whiskey. LOL

[larrysharp11]

Wow thanks for all the helpful replies!

James - no dis on DP intended; though I haven't tried all the major DAWs I suspected that none of them could do this since it's probably such an unlikely feature anyone would want and not worth the programming work.

Getting my G4 running again - if I can; I think the boot drive was flaking out when I retired it years ago - and finding/installing Vision seems like a lot of work and I'm lazy.

The idea of rendering both sequences to audio was the only way I could imagine doing it, and suspected I might have to nudge the files so they start exactly on the downbeat of the first note, so kind of kludgey (maybe).

Playing the parts "live" and out of phase is too cool for me, despite the fact that the piece I mentioned was actually performed live by 2 pianists - I can only imagine how hard that would be, especially in the days before in-ear click tracks.

I'll look into the Scale Time feature - it sounds like it could do just what I want.

FWIW I've also thought of doing this with analog hardware sequencers. The only problem is that I don't own any, haha. Of course that really limits the complexity of the sequences, with 8 or 16 steps each.

So "minimalist bliss" with DP may be attainable after all!

Someone needs to make a tape loop plugin for me and the 2 other people in the world who would buy it, haha. They already have saturation and tape echo, seems like a straightforward extension of those things. It could do what I'm talking about here - make 2 copies of the same loop and play them at slightly different speeds (the speeds should be continuously variable over a range). But it could do other fun stuff too - it could be a "tape studio" in a plugin. Maybe some music schools would buy it for history classes, haha. Most of that old school stuff is trivial in modern DAWs, but as this thread demonstrates, some of the simplest things aren't.

ld

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Tape loop? Check out the Polar feature! It's in there.