wtcmusician wrote:Gonna pick all of your brains again...
Things are getting clearer now - the people who strongly oppose the behavior to drag select MIDI notes from anywhere in the note seem to have a common workflow where you look at multiple overlapping MIDI tracks in the MIDI editor simultaneously. I think what I am not understanding here is why you would be looking at so many MIDI tracks in the MIDI editor.
If I want to work on an ensemble, as in the video example, I do it that way so that I can see where all the attacks are. I can hear them, but I want to see them, too. I can usually get my ensemble cleaned up pretty much by sight and not have to play it very often to do so.
I use color coding to better utilize the MIDI Graphic Editor. When a particular part does not stand out, I instantly change the color set, and I've done it so much that I kind of know which sets work for various things. I've got that set up in QuicKeys so that I can quickly find any of about 24 color sets, utilizing the numeric keypad and some modifier keys. If you want more on that,
here's a video from a while back. It shows audio rather than MIDI, but the principle is the same. It's all about contrast and brightness.
It would be hard to explain all that I do. I don't have a single workflow, but many, depending on the circumstances and desired results. It's always been my goal to utilize as much of the app as possible, and to be able to judge quickly how to work on a given problem. That said, I do 99% of my MIDI work in the MIDI Graphic Editor, but with lots of visits to the Tracks Overview Window, and occasionally the Event List or the Sequence Editor. (the SE is almost essential for lining up MIDI with audio, and for adjusting beats with the Conductor Track as a guide.
wtcmusician wrote:Even when I need to pull back the starts of notes on many tracks simultaneously or do something else to notes on multiple MIDI tracks, I will use the Track Selector to view only the tracks I want to edit. That seems logical to me. Shooshie, I think something you said in another thread was that you usually have the MIDI editor as a large floating window pretty much occupying its own screen - do you perpetually have all the tracks showing and take advantage of DP's selection behavior to still select only wanted notes while still viewing all tracks like in the video?
I keep my MIDI Graphic Editor at full screen 100% of the time, in its own "Space," in Mission Control. If you're interested in learning about that,
here is a video about setting up DP in Spaces using Mission Control. Setup goes very fast each time you open a file, thanks to the way Mission Control works. I wish Apple would make it possible to save windows in their respective Spaces, but it probably won't happen. I feel lucky that they have made even this much possible.
As for showing all tracks at once, again that depends on what I'm working on. I may want to tighten up the strings' attacks, so I'll quickly zoom in on a beat, drag the notes so that they are closer to the "right" attack, then zoom out again and move to the next one that needs it. If I'm working on phrasing, I may show all parts of a section if not the whole ensemble. Remember that you can select the lines you want to hear, then COMMAND-OPTION-SPACEBAR to only your selection played. Also, in SOLO mode, the visible tracks will be treated as "frontmost" and soloed together. This is extremely handy. Rather than having to return to the Mixing Board to solo a track, you just make visible the tracks you want to hear by selecting them to display in the MIDI Graphic Editor.
Also, sometimes I have playback set up to follow what I'm looking at, or to play what is selected over and over, or to rewind to the beginning of what I'm working on, and many other options. With DP you can practically have it read your mind and know what to play. It just depends on how your transport buttons and counters are set.
To sum up simply, what I'm looking at and listening to is constantly changing as I move through the work and determine what to do next. Always, however, I return to the full-ensemble, full-screen view to evaluate how I'm doing and to plan where to go next. So yes, it's always something I return to, though not always what I'm working in. Sometimes I'm working on individual tracks, just like you.
wtcmusician wrote:In my workflow this doesn't make any sense at all - one reason being that I constantly use DP's solo mode to listen to only the MIDI tracks that are being shown in the MIDI Editor which is in focus as I'm editing. Secondly, it seems like it would be difficult to know (even with color coding) which MIDI notes correspond to which track when there are so many (even in audible mode which even then if there are multiple notes selected it's not clear which notes are playing what sound)? Although there were many MIDI tracks being shown in your window there were only a handful of actual parts with notes during that period - it seemed like it was the string sections of an orchestra with a few woodwinds and brass and maybe percussion in there. I can see how you would be well aware of which colors of notes were the strings but beyond that it seems like it would be difficult to know what was what. Of course if you have been doing it the exact same way for a very long time maybe you would have that down.
As I said earlier, I change the color coding often to help clarify the lines I'm looking at, listening to, and/or working on. It's so quick and easy that I often change color sets without even really thinking about it, just as you might adjust your glasses or lean in closer. I chose very easy keyboard commands, and I use double-commands ("Sticky Keys") as explained in the video on colors.
wtcmusician wrote:
Third, in most of my sequences there is some kind of bass track and a drum kit track or set of tracks that are the various components. Those two tracks alone will easily occupy the same pitch range and many of the notes will start at exactly the same place, making it impossible to select ONLY notes from the bass track or visa versa. Add to that the left hand content of piano and padding and whatever else. In fact there are a lot of my tracks where the same note #'s and starting places are occupied. Or notes from one track are simply overlapped completely by notes from another track.
In such cases, I may do one of the following (or not... depends on the situation):
- • Select Velocities. The active track is the only one with velocities showing, of course.
• Click-Select the tracks that are easy to reach, then SHIFT-DRAG over them all to de-select those and select the ones I could not reach. I call this "negative selection."
• Switch to the Tracks Overview Window and select the track/bar I want, then switch back. (very fast since they are both always open to full-screen in different Spaces)
• OPTION-CLICK the track name in the MIDI Graphic Edit Window's track selector to close all tracks but that one. If I've spent time setting up exactly the tracks I want to view, out of a large number of tracks, I'm less likely to do this. I'll use the Tracks Overview instead, or even another window like the Sequence Editor or Event List.
• Sometimes I see a quick way to select something with the Search feature. I have probably a couple dozen searches saved, so it's usually pretty fast, but sometimes it needs customizing. If this bogs down, I will go back to one of the above.
It should be clear that having my main windows open to full-screen all the time (along with the Consolidated Windows for some of them) makes this way of working a lot more practical. It just doesn't take any time at all to switch to a different window, which will be tracking the cursor, and therefore will be in the location where I'm working.
wtcmusician wrote:
I guess my music is a lot more vertical and small-ensemble oriented than what maybe you guys do. My music usually has 1-3 melodic instruments, 1-3 vertical chordal instruments 1-2 bass instruments, and rhythmic components. Shooshie's sequence looked extremely horizontal with most every part being melodic. Several parts occasionally hitting a note at the same time to create a chord. I also noticed that there was not very much actual overlapping of notes - and when there was, the note-ons didn't seem to occur at the same time. When notes DID occur at the same time, they were usually different note #'s. Totally different than what my equivalent MIDI editor window would look like. Since so many of my notes across different tracks start at the same time it makes no positive difference to me that it would not inadvertently select the previous note of a different track if I drag select from before the desired note. And if there is an undesired previous note, even with no gap in between, it seems like common sense to drag select the desired note in the middle of the note as opposed to fretting because if I drag from before the note it will select the previous note. Maybe this is a big reason for our difference of opinion, the style of music inherently demands different types of selections.
And I think it's important to be fluent in all types of selections. I may use certain ones most of the time, but I'm usually quick to use another when I see an opportunity for it.
I'm working on my own projects these days, instead of other people's, so I work at a more leisurely pace but the pressure of staying ahead of the pack from the old days still influences my working style.
wtcmusician wrote: I think that it is just a force of habit as to whether you are used to beginning your drag select from the middle or from before the beginning of a note. If all of you almost exclusively use DP then I can definitely understand that being second nature. Once again since 2/3 of the DAWs I use do it the other way I am used to being able to drag select a note from anywhere. Since most of the arguments for why DP's behavior is preferable don't seem very applicable to my particular workflow I think it would be nice to have an option here. I saw in Shooshie's video how it would definitely be a problem in his environment if my wish came true but my MIDI editor window never looks like that, and the differences between the two in my opinion would actually make a difference on this.
Having said all this, I definitely see everybody's point on why DP should stay the way it is and why it was designed that way. At least for what I saw Shooshie doing I think I would prefer it that way as well. I think if there WAS an option I would rather it default to the way you guys like it too.
A certain amount of it may be habit, but I've given it a lot of thought, and I don't see myself drag selecting the middle of notes very often even if I could. I've used Logic enough to know that I don't like that way of working.
wtcmusician wrote:Shooshie, I think one thing we might have in common is that we both record MIDI piano parts. But I am confused as to your method of recording it. Are you going so far as to say that you don't even record it to a click? If you don't, do you at least use adjust beats on it after the fact? Sorry if I am jumping to conclusions on this or claiming you said things that you didn't. I am interested in hearing more about this.
Ok. This is a topic I enjoy talking about, too, because DP handles it so much better than any other DAW I've seen.
First of all, yes, I record piano without clicks. In fact, any performance I do is generally without clicks unless it's just simply entering a written score into tracks. I like working freely and making DP adapt to me rather than the alternative, but I can work either way and do work with a click when it seems more expedient. I use Adjust Beats when I need for DP to show me a score. If it's just audio with occasional MIDI parts, I may not go to the trouble of adjusting beats, but when I'm depending on measure numbers and when I want to be able to type in a location, beat, and subdivision, then I always adjust the beats. I made a video of that many years ago, but the sound is off-kilter. I should make a new one, but if you want to see the old one,
here it is. At about 7:00 I switch from adjusting whole bars to adjusting individual beats, and I show a trick that I developed to help with getting those beats evened out when the music is ambiguous or sustaining over one or more beats. I think this is essential to the process, so you might want to take a look at that. It involves using the Conductor track in conjunction with the piano track.
wtcmusician wrote:
When I record piano, I have pretty much already worked out exactly what is going to be played and record it to a click. Most of the MIDI note editing I do after that will be minor - quantizing, maybe a little tweaking of note starts and endings, definitely compressing of velocities. But I often record the RH and LH separately onto different tracks so that I can view them independently in the MIDI editor! A big reason for this is also that at least with my music, the right and left hands will not be playing two different halves of one musical part - they will be doing independent things that appropriately should be edited separately. Like left hand chords and right hand melody, or right hand comping and left hand arpeggios, etc. The notes rarely overlap. Yes, I usually perform them in real time on a keyboard controller. And also I guess I don't like clutter. And also instead of having to rely on velocities of dominant parts in the piano performance I would rather just be able to LOOK at that part without having to see the parts that I don't want to edit.
If you can get good performances that way, then that's a good way to work. Most pianists play differently when they are not encumbered with the beat. (Myself included) Not that they can't play with a beat, but they aren't "themselves" with a click. If the point is to capture their personality, then you pretty much have to go without the click. But if they are playing with an ensemble where the piano is not the dominant part, then the click is usually essential. Again... circumstances and situations. There's no single set method.
wtcmusician wrote:
Tell me where I'm wrong. I feel like I'm from a different planet from you guys, but be assured that I am a trained musician and also not a Logic troller.
Is there a wrong way to work? I don't think so. Only wrong results. If you're getting the results you want, and if your work moves forward at a pace that is satisfactory to you, then there certainly isn't anything wrong. If you find yourself spending an excess amount of time while moving forward only incrementally, then it may be time to examine what you're doing and how you're working.
I spent about a year going back and forth with Logic, because there was a period in which I was afraid that DP wasn't going to be available any more. After a while, I finally decided that DP was my DAW, that Logic just wasn't ready for the way I work, and I figured that if MOTU stopped developing DP, I'd get off the upgrade train right there and stay with what I had forever, if that was necessary. That's when I really looked at how I worked and realized that I had developed some very precise methods that really made musical sense, not just technical sense. I asked Logic users for help in finding the tools within Logic to do the same thing. They'd point me to what I'd already found. The tools just weren't refined. People who haven't used DP's tools to a high degree of precision may not realize how finely developed DP really is. I swore off all other DAWs at that point, though I continue to try out new ones from time to time. They just don't do what DP does, and they can't take it as far. The drag-selection of only the note-on is just one example. Someone had to make that decision. Someone had to say "this becomes a more surgical tool if it only selects the note-on," and make the decision NOT to select the rest of the note except through clicks. That mirrors my way of thinking, so I'm happy that they did. But if Logic feels right to you, then it is.
It's been an interesting discussion. I look forward to others.
Shooshie