Selection of MIDI notes in MIDI editor

[wtcmusician]

I know that in Pro Tools and Logic, in their piano roll editors you can select MIDI notes by dragging the cursor selection over any part of the note. In Digital Performer it seems that in order for the note to be selected, the note start has to be part of the selection. Does anyone know of a way I can change this behavior so that will be selected no matter which part of the note I select?

[Shooshie]

You can select a note by clicking or dragging over the note itself, or its velocity tic, which is in the panel below the MIDI "piano-roll" in the MIDI Graphic Editor Window. There are no other parts of the note. Just the note and its velocity. I don't know what else you could click on. But you can select the note from the beginning, end, middle...

I think I may know what your problem is. Perhaps you have RANGE selections as your default. Go to Preferences / Editing / Tools and look at the selection modes. Choose Events and Range selections combined.

Read Chapter 42 in the DP-8 manual called "Selecting." You'll find it in the pages 490-ish.

The key to using Digital Performer is in the ability to select complicated sets of objects and ranges. It's good to know all the tricks.

[wtcmusician]

There is the note on with its velocity and the note off with its velocity, colored in between to show the illusion of a single sustained note event. When you are in the MIDI editor and are using either the pointer or I-beam tool (regardless of setting in the tools preference drop-down menu) to select MIDI note events, you must include the note on as part of the selection in order for the note to be selected as an event selection. I don't want to have to click on the note or drag on its note on velocity down below to have the note be selected, I just want to be able to drag my selection over ANY part of the note (in the MIDI editor piano roll graphic) and have the note event be selected. Like for instance if I drag my selection over the END of of the note, I want for that note event to be selected. I don't want to have to drag all the way to the beginning of the note.

[stubbsonic]

This is not an answer, and I get why you might want that.

But for me it would be a nightmare to have it function that way. It is difficult enough (now) to select specific note events the way I want to in DP (selection has gotten clunkier since the early days)-- but having to avoid the tail-ends of the notes I don't want selected would be a huge pain.

But in the spirit of versatility, it seems like being able to set a preference for things to behave that way would be (is?) good. I'd leave it off. And if it defaulted to on, I would turn it off with a fairly forceful mouse-click!

[Shooshie]

I have Note-Off icons hidden. When they are shown, I think DP ignores them when selecting. To have it otherwise would be a nightmare for me.

Selection is my strong point. In the 20-odd years that I was doing this professionally, one of the reasons people liked to work with me was because I was so fast at MIDI. One of the reasons I was so fast was that I could very quickly select any combination of events, but most especially musical lines within a thickly populated piano part. DP made that possible. One method I used a lot for extracting lines from a piano part was velocity. The melody, for example, often had the loudest velocities, making a simple rectangle selection possible. Range made it possible to select certain notes. But always, I used whatever techniques suggested themselves in the task at hand, changing course when a better method struck me.

I realize that you think it's not working the way it should, because you can see possibilities for the way you would like for it to work. But this is one of those few cases where I will say right out to someone "trust me; this is better." It might be a year or two before you agree with me, but I'm pretty confident that you will.

Remember when making selections that you have many ways to go, and you can use them ALL when making a single selection if it helps. Let me give you a few examples:

• The Edit Windows:
  • • Tracks Overview Window
    • MIDI Graphic Editor
    • Drum Editor
    • Event List
    • Sequence Editor
    • Notation Editor
    • QuickScribe
  Each of those has certain advantages when editing. If you learn to have all windows quickly available to you (and there are multiple techniques for that, too) then you can utilize the advantages of each window when grabbing objects to add to your selection.
  Menus and Preferences:
  • • The Search Window (select by using boolean queries, metric grids, note values, or any other parameter)
    • Split — a sort of small-time Search window, will divide a track by certain user-selected parameters.
    • View Filter — Temporarily (or permanently) hide data types that are preventing an easy selection.
    • Quick Filter — Bottom left corner of MIDI Edit Window: hides all data types except those that currently have at least one event selected.
    • RANGE vs. EVENT selection mode. I alluded to this in my previous post. Set in the Preferences/Editing/Tools panel, this is where you choose the top-level power that you want to apply to your selection process. It is especially effective in the Tracks Overview Window. Use Range selections for fast work there. However, you can learn to do range selections with both range and event types active.
  Other Techniques:
  • • Negative Selection: select what you DON'T want, then SHIFT-DRAG over it to select what you DO want.
    • Note Panel vs. the Controller/Velocity Panel within most of the MIDI edit windows.
    • Piano Keyboard Pitch Graphic on the left side of the piano-roll of the MIDI Graphic Edit Window. Often overlooked, this can be very useful. Click one of those notes, and you select every occurrence of that note. Sometimes it's easier to remove the ones you don't want than to try to build a selection of only those you do want.
    • SHIFT Key is always your friend. You will always keep the SHIFT down when making selections, adding or subtracting. Hold it down until you are done with the edit, because one erroneous click could send you back to the beginning.
  There are probably other selection tools, too; this is off the top of my head. I always leave out obvious things when I'm not looking at it.

• For an example of more specialized selection techniques, read this post from the DP Tips Sheet, page 2.
Learning all that DP has available and using it fluently will make selection of regions go very quickly.

[Dan Worley]

...When you are in the MIDI editor and are using either the pointer or I-beam tool (regardless of setting in the tools preference drop-down menu) to select MIDI note events, you must include the note on as part of the selection in order for the note to be selected as an event selection.

That has always bothered me, too. I wish the Lasso tool would work on MIDI notes like it does on soundbites. Control Option forces the Lasso tool and you just have to touch any part of the soundbite for the entire thing to be selected.

[Shooshie]

...When you are in the MIDI editor and are using either the pointer or I-beam tool (regardless of setting in the tools preference drop-down menu) to select MIDI note events, you must include the note on as part of the selection in order for the note to be selected as an event selection.

Let's be clear on terminology. If you are in the MIDI Graphic Editor, then what you just said is not correct. Using the pointer, you can click on any part of the note to select it, providing you steer clear of the ends, where the pointer turns into a hand to change the duration. That works, regardless of the settings for range/event selection.

I'm guessing that you are working in the Sequence Editor, where your statement is true for RANGE SELECTIONS ONLY, set in the tools preference drop-down menu. Clicking within a note does not work when in Range Selections Only mode, because it interprets a click as a selection of a range, which in that case would have the same starting and ending point. But set the preferences to ALL SELECTIONS, and any pointer click WILL select a note, no matter where you click within the note. (the hand-cursor will grab the endpoint for changing duration)

In the Sequence Editor, in EVENT SELECTION ONLY mode, CONTROL-OPTION will enable you to select multiple layers, getting notes and controllers all together in one swoop. I guess that's just changing to range selections. There is some complexity of modifiers when used with different selection preferences. I can't remember them all; I have to experiment sometimes. Thank goodness for UNDO, and for the Default Zoom (COMMAND-SHIFT-N) for when you accidentally zoom instead of select.

I very strongly recommend working with MIDI in the MIDI Graphic Editor Window rather than the Sequence Editor. The latter has its advantages for certain situations, but I almost never use it, not even for those things, as the MIDI Graphic Editor can do everything just as easily, and in many cases even more easily. The other windows work well for special needs, but 99.99% of your work will go smoothly in the MIDI Graphic Editor. It's made for MIDI.

In the end, you can use whatever window you want. Someone here still uses the Event List. Whatever floats your boat. But be absolutely sure that you choose your windows based on knowledge, and not because you just aren't familiar with another window. If you haven't spent some time learning the MGE Window, you're cheating yourself.

That has always bothered me, too. I wish the Lasso tool would work on MIDI notes like it does on soundbites. Control Option forces the Lasso tool and you just have to touch any part of the soundbite for the entire thing to be selected.

I'm guessing that you, too, are using the Sequence Editor for MIDI, based on your wishes above. Actually, in the Sequence Editor, holding down Control-Option does change the cursor to a lasso, and you can drag ranges whether it's MIDI or audio. But if you want to click anywhere within a MIDI note, you must be able to select Events. (Preferences/Editing/Tools/Selection Drop Down Menu)

So, I'm guessing that both of you want to drag a range selection anywhere within a note and have it select the note. Well, visualize this, if your wish were granted:

• With RANGE SELECTIONS ONLY selected, you're editing a line of 20 repeated 32nd notes, back-to-back, and you want to select every other one. There is almost no space between them, with each ending at 479 and the next one starting at 1. This would be nearly impossible to select using range selections, because you'd be catching the ends of the previous notes along with the beginning of the alternating notes.
  
  Of course, the same thing applies to all legato notes, all notes that are back-to-back. Even when they are pitched a step apart, it's still hard to drag a range that selects only one note and not the one before it or after it.
  
  Clicking, on the other hand, will catch any note, anywhere within the note, because it's a specific selection, not a range selection. That works like Soundbites with the pointer cursor.

There is so much discrepancy between what both of you said and what I said that it would seem almost as if we are using different apps. I'm in DP8, btw, and in OS X 10.9.4, not that it probably changes anything. Again, I encourage everyone at least to try using the MIDI Graphic Editor Window for MIDI. It's what I use for almost everything MIDI, until a special need arises that favors another editor. And that's rare enough that I can't think of a specific example right now.

Tell me where I'm miscommunicating. I feel like you all are telling me something that maybe I'm overlooking because of my work habits. But I've gone over what you said, and I've tried it in the Sequence and MIDI Graphic Editor windows, and it still supports what I said. If necessary, I'll make a movie to demonstrate, but first let's see if we can figure out where we're not on the same page. Then at least I'd know what to focus on for a movie.

When I was testing some of my own statements while ago, I found that some of them mysteriously failed to work some of the time. We may have some bugs. It was too inconsistent to say exactly what was happening. It may even by my trackpad needing new batteries. I'm not going to make any claims just yet.

Shooshie

[Dan Worley]

Shoosh,

Here's my take on it: In the SE, when you drag over any part of a soundbite with the Lasso tool (including the tail), the entire soundbite is selected. This is not the case for MIDI notes in either the SE or ME. With MIDI notes, when you drag select with the Lasso or Crosshair, you have to drag over the head of the note or it will not be included in the selection. I believe the OP is saying he would like to be able to touch any part of the MIDI note for it to be selected when drag selecting. I agree with him.

[wtcmusician]

Shooshie,

I think you understand exactly what I am wanting - but in case there is any confusion this video should clear it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-UiFZe ... e=youtu.be

[stubbsonic]

Understood. But I should reiterate that this should be an optional preference, and not how it works by default. I would lose my mind if that was how DP worked.

It's one thing when you have notes just in series and you want to select without having to cover a lot of screen space. But when you have chords, and sustaining notes that overlap-- then lassoing around the starts of notes is by far preferable. It would be a drag (N.P.I.) to be trying to select a single note that starts while other notes near it are sustaining around it.

All that said, I'm all for having tons of preferences to let you set things to work the way you want. It makes the prefs a little more convoluted, but in the long run, how we select notes is hugely important.

[wtcmusician]

Everyone seems to be in agreement that this is NOT something that can be controlled. I appreciate everybody's responses!

[Shooshie]

Shooshie,

I think you understand exactly what I am wanting - but in case there is any confusion this video should clear it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-UiFZe ... e=youtu.be

Yeah, that's what I thought. I go back to my original statement: if DP worked that way, it would be undesirable for me. When selecting notes with no space between them, you end up getting the notes you don't want.

The example you used is not realistic for me. Here is a typical MIDI scenario in which I'm working:
This is a small sample; click the picture for a full-screen version.



And if you'd rather see it in action, here's a Video Example. (Best if you watch it Full Screen!)

The problem is that if DP worked the way Logic does, where a drag rectangle catches any part of the note and selects it, I could not surgically select complex sets of objects using the dragging method, because the cursor would be touching all the notes preceding the beginning of my selection. I'd have to zoom very far in to avoid touching other notes, and then I wouldn't have the screen real-estate to complete my selection. SHIFT-DRAG adds to the selection, so this would be happening over and over again for a single large selection set. Very frustrating. Much more so, I might add, than just learning to drag over the beginning of the note.

A note "happens" at a certain point in time. That's the point you want to select. The rest of the note is graphically represented, but to select it anywhere in its duration would be sloppy work.

My opinion only, but I couldn't tell you the 100's of thousands of such selections I've made, and I've often thought about how well the designers thought-out things like that, to avoid impractical situations.

Conversely, you CAN click on any part of the note to select it, if you are working in the MIDI Graphic Editor.


Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Everyone seems to be in agreement that this is NOT something that can be controlled. I appreciate everybody's responses!

Controlled?

It's the way it is by design. It's quite controlled. We just tried to explain to you why that is the case. As is often the case with Logic users, you are expecting DP to operate the way Logic does, and assuming that since it is different, it's broken. There are reasons why we choose DP over Logic. This is just one of many.

Shooshie

[stubbsonic]

First of all, I agree 100% with Shooshie and his reasons.

Showing the durations of the notes is hugely important info. However, I am glad that I don't have to select an entire note (start to finish), and I'm also glad that if my lasso includes a release, it won't select that note.

When thinking of a range of musical events, I think of the pitch range (vertical) and time-range (horizontal)-- specifically of when the note BEGINS. Of course, when a note releases is a very important musical quality, but when I am selecting, I think which pitches & when they start.

When I'm working with compositions or arrangements, I might quantize things for notation purposes. But I often work with non- or partially quantized material. I know that the beginning of my lasso usually needs to be a little before the time I want, and the end of my lasso needs to include the last grid point that I want (plus a little later- to catch late notes). I also now have to make sure the grid snap is OFF for every selection, but back on for dragging. I just have to hold down COMMAND now, every time I select-- I think it will always annoy me (just slightly) since I so much liked the way it was before.

But I'm just bringing this up because DP does offer quite a few preferences for selection. I think a couple more would be ok-- even if the result was to emulate previous versions of DP or other DAW's behavior.

[wtcmusician]

Shooshie - I am thankful that you have spent so much time on this and gone to the effort to make a video on it.

Now that I have seen your video I can clearly see how it makes more sense in your style of workflow for DP to select notes the way it does. My workflow is different. My compositions tend to have discreet parts (drums, bass, keys, etc.) vs. your orchestral layout. At least that was the example you showed. My MIDI tracks usually contain parts that I would not want to edit simultaneously (note placements or durations or velocities, or other continuous or switch data). More often than not I view only one MIDI track in the MIDI editor. I usually just option-click on the desired track in the Track Selector. If I do ever view more than one MIDI track in the MIDI editor it is only two, maybe three tracks. So while my video didn't apply to you, it applies to me a lot more. Also, I agree that there is virtually no reason to use the sequence editor over the MIDI editor for this.

I am looking at your MIDI editor view and imagining how I would go about selecting the notes. Hypothetically I want to select notes in different tracks that are starting at the downbeat of a measure - my instinct is to drag select from the MIDDLE of a note in order to select it, not before the note. I guess this is because with my experience in other DAWs if I were to start drag selecting from before the start of the desired note it would also select what I don't want.

To me, the act of dragging my cursor to the meat of a note event and clicking on it (especially when zoomed out as much as you were) is much more difficult than dragging my cursor to a point generally close to the note I want and dragging into the note to select it. Maybe this has to do with the fact that I use a trackball.

I completely agree with you on selecting certain notes by velocity and I do practice that technique. However your melodic piano line velocity example was something I do not relate to. If my piano part has a right hand part and a left hand part, I will most likely record them onto separate tracks and edit them separately. That way I do not have to worry about the intricacies of selecting notes - usually I find that the differences in what notes to select rely solely on which hand they were played on. I realize that our applications are probably extremely different.

In the example where you wanted to select every other note - I understand and I also do that but if DP selected notes the way I was hoping for it would not inhibit the ability to do that whatsoever as long as you simply start the cursor drag select from somewhere inside the desired note instead of before. If you are used to starting your drag selections from before the note starts then yes I can understand how you would NOT want that.

You mentioned that if you have repeated notes with very short gaps between them, you would have to zoom in very far in order to start your drag rectangle between the unwanted note and the wanted note on the right in order to select the note to the right. A lot of the time I have NO gap between the notes. You also said that "A note "happens" at a certain point in time. That's the point you want to select. The rest of the note is graphically represented, but to select it anywhere in its duration would be sloppy work." Of course I understand that a note is played starting at its note-on but that doesn't mean that I should necessarily view the selection of it the same way. I think the root of your logic on this whole subject is this statement, that you should start your drag rectangle from before the note in order to catch the start of the note. The root of my logic is that you should be able to select a note from anywhere. In fact my first instinct is to drag from the center of the note.

In my work situation I constantly have to use DP, Logic and Pro Tools and one of the things I must do in them is edit MIDI. Since both Logic and Pro Tools select notes from anywhere and DP does not I guess I am more conditioned to expecting that to happen in DP.

I have been using DP for over 10 years and accept that this is the behavior. I don't believe it is flawed because it doesn't. I just wanted to know if anybody knew of a way to change the behavior. I fully realize that if I exclusively used DP I would be totally used to it and would not have a problem with it whatsoever, but as I said before I have to deal with using two other DAWS and the difference between the three of them causes problems - this being one of them.

Stubbsonic - I usually have most note-ons quantized. I agree with you that the position of the note-offs is a critical matter. Something you might find controversial is that while I understand how Smart Selections work, it never does what I want it to do and I ALWAYS have it turned off because it always selects things I don't want to select. On a drum track I also usually have the note-offs quantized too. The only reason for this is because I like it to look clean. So when everything is quantized like this there is no chance of accidental selection of unwanted notes or non-selecting of desired notes. You also mentioned how it would be inconvenient for DP to select notes from anywhere in the note when there are chords and sustaining notes that overlap - I honestly don't see this as being an issue unless someone can explain it better to me. If and when I have multiple parts that are occupying the same note #'s and are overlapping each other, I would usually never choose to view them together in the MIDI editor because I want to avoid selecting unwanted notes. And regardless of whether DP only selects notes by drag selecting over the note-ons or selects notes by drag selecting over any part of the note, I would still end up selecting unwanted notes in that situation unless I was extremely careful. Maybe there's some reason for viewing multiple crossing parts in the MIDI editor that I'm missing.

Dan Worley - even though this is not an argument, thank you for sympathizing with my position! haha

-wtcmusician