Expression and panning after import from Sibelius

[dsalier]

I wrote a few bars of a string quartet piece in Sibelius and imported the MIDI into DP, set the instruments to Kontakt 5. When I drew expression data on the violin track, it didn't playback what I had drawn...I also found that I couldn't tweak the panning using the Mixing Board like usual.

The Kontakt interface had already set my instruments to either L or R depending on where they usually sit in the orchestra (I assume), and playing a note on the keyboard reflected this panning setup, but it wasn't reflected when I hit play on the sequence I'd imported from Sibelius.

Not sure if any of this makes sense....but is it because I imported the MIDI from Sibelius? Usually I have no trouble with the panning knobs or drawing expression data.

[Shooshie]

I wrote a few bars of a string quartet piece in Sibelius and imported the MIDI into DP, set the instruments to Kontakt 5. When I drew expression data on the violin track, it didn't playback what I had drawn...I also found that I couldn't tweak the panning using the Mixing Board like usual.

The Kontakt interface had already set my instruments to either L or R depending on where they usually sit in the orchestra (I assume), and playing a note on the keyboard reflected this panning setup, but it wasn't reflected when I hit play on the sequence I'd imported from Sibelius.

Not sure if any of this makes sense....but is it because I imported the MIDI from Sibelius? Usually I have no trouble with the panning knobs or drawing expression data.

It's hard for me to know exactly what's going on here, since I can't see your setup and all that, but based on what you've told us here, I'm going to suggest you mentally follow the tracks and see what appears. Let me clarify:

You created the tracks in Sibelius. When you use an instrument there, you say it is already panned, based on where it sits in the orchestra. That means Sibelius is panning its audio output for that MIDI track based on internal programming. When you import the MIDI track into DP, what do you think it brings with it? Is Sibelius going to write MIDI Controller #10 into the track to pan it? I doubt that. Sibelius is set up to pan playback within Sibelius. To add panning data to the track would be messing with what you created. Not good form. You'll need to add panning to each track, according to where you want it, or just pan it manually in the mixing board without writing it to automation.

Automation is kind of personal. Each person has their own way of dealing with it. It's not a good idea to add automation data without the explicit instruction from the person who created it, so Sibelius probably leaves that out.

Next, you said that that you drew in Expression data, but you cannot hear it in playback. That opens a fairly large can of digital worms that only you can solve, but I can offer you some clues. First, are you using Kontakt in DP, same as you were using in Sibelius? Are your instruments set up in exactly the same way? Sometimes you have to specify within each instrument whether it will respond to Volume (CC#7), Expression (CC#11), or Breath Control (CC#2). Some instruments respond to Velocity, which sets the maximum loudness for a given note by choosing the layer of samples used for that note. Expression or Breath Control applied after the initial Velocity strike cannot change the layer or crescendo louder than the initial Velocity strike. They can bring the volume down, but they cannot raise it any louder than the original note. This is overcome with velocity cross-fading in better samplers. I'm pretty sure Kontakt can do that, but it may depend on the particular sample library you've chosen. If it's an old one, it may not have that programming.

I'm using the word "may" a lot. You have to figure out whether any of this applies to your particular case.

A handy tool for figuring out whether your MIDI programming is actually being sent by DP is MIDI Monitor, by Snoize. With it, you can easily see exactly what has been played by DP in any MIDI channel. DP is usually pretty good about playing everything it's supposed to, but it is comforting to know without doubt that the signals are there. Then it's a matter of finding out why those signals are not being performed precisely by the instruments you have chosen to play them.

The answer is most likely within Kontakt. Figure out what it's doing about Expression #11 signals, and you'll probably have your answer.

Shooshie

[dsalier]

Hey Shooshie -
Thanks for the reply.

I opened the mixing board in DP and tried to set the panning there, but my settings weren't reflected in playback. Also seems I can only recreate the issue when importing MIDI from Sibelius -- if I record a line on violin, for instance, I can draw expression data and hear it upon playback.

As you recommended, I'll poke around some more in the Kontakt settings and see if I can figure this out. I'm still new to their orchestral library so I'm sure there is something I'm missing.

Thanks!

Diana

[Shooshie]

Hey Shooshie -
Thanks for the reply.

I opened the mixing board in DP and tried to set the panning there, but my settings weren't reflected in playback. Also seems I can only recreate the issue when importing MIDI from Sibelius -- if I record a line on violin, for instance, I can draw expression data and hear it upon playback.

As you recommended, I'll poke around some more in the Kontakt settings and see if I can figure this out. I'm still new to their orchestral library so I'm sure there is something I'm missing.

Thanks!

Diana

Again, as I said in the earlier post, this is the sort of stuff which opens up a pretty big can of digital worms. I don't mean that in a gross or hopeless way, only to say that there are a LOT of possible explanations, and they all depend on the circumstances, settings, routing, and so forth.

For example, you may be doing MIDI panning instead of audio panning. That may or may not work, depending on how your instrument responds to MIDI panning. If Kontakt is aware of the MIDI pan, and if its outputs are stereo, then it should work to some extent.

If you want real control over your panning, you need to do audio panning. That is, pan the audio outputs, not the MIDI inputs. THAT leads us to how you are outputting the sound. Are you using Kontakt's multiple outputs? Or are you doing all your mixing inside Kontakt, and then using one output pair from Kontakt routed through DP's Main Outs? In order to pan individual instruments effectively, you have two choices, at least as I see it:

• 1) do your panning and preliminary mixing inside Kontakt, possibly using MIDI to automate it
  OR
  2) choose individual outputs in Kontakt for your instruments, then assign them to your template via DP's Bundles Window.

The latter is how I would go about it, because it gives you more effective control of each instrument's audio from within DP's mixing board. If you aren't doing it this way, DP's mixing controls will have very little effect on Kontakt's output.

For absolute maximum panning control, choose option 2, then add a Trim plugin to each track or stereo pair. Trim gives you complete panning options not available in a single knob. With Trim, you can not only pan the instrument but adjust its width within the stereo field, which makes its location stand out a bit more (if done well).

See why this isn't just a yes/no/do-this answer? As you learn more about what you're working with, you'll see just what an enormous bite you just took out of the cookie. That's good; it's just going to take you a little while to fill in all the knowledge base that you need to be in total control over it, and every step of the way forks into more possibilities. It's a good feeling when you finally can put a definitive answer on all those questions. But there's only one person who can do that... we can only point out some paths for you.

Good luck and stay with it. You'll have it all figured out in no time.

Shooshie

[bdr]

Sibelius exports some extra MIDI data in its MIDI files. Check with the event list in DP for each track and you'll see at the top a bunch of MIDI data. Try deleting it and then redoing your expression/panning etc in DP.