Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamics?

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mhschmieder
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Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamics?

Post by mhschmieder »

I'm VERY confused by the latest SWAM updates from Sample Modeling. Suddenly, I have no dynamics and am full-on, which makes for unusable renderings.

I could have sworn that "Note On" velocity affected dynamics in previous versions (based on listening to renderings I did with them).

This is for pre-recorded MIDI as opposed to new MIDI recordings using breath control, wind control, or expression. These are good, nuanced performances (many are in the jazz genre) so I could never quite recreate them with as much feeling and flow if I had to do them over using a wind controller or a keyboard plus expression pedal.

Of course, expression, volume, and note velocity aren't the same thing, but different vendors choose different ways of dealing with them and applying them.

According to the new SWAM manual, note velocity only affects the likelihood of whether legato is applied or not. That of course is not how I think when I'm playing and is not how I want legacy MIDI to be interpreted.

Is there an easy way to derive an equivalent MIDI CC Expression map from "Note On" velocities? Would it need to be a few ticks ahead of the note? Would this even achieve the intended results?

Right now, I am hearing the obvious result of setting EXP to 127 at the start of the track, so that the SWAM engine gets its necessary trigger. Maybe I should experiment with lower values and see if there is then some modulation of attack velocity, but that's not generally how I think of Expression. So, right now, I'm very confused how to work with SWAM.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by minimidi »

Samplemodeling VIs absolutely need an expression controller. In my experience they are at their best using a breath controller like this one.

There is an excellent video in which he controls expression in different ways, both with the BC and a pedal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j1CUY2ELtE
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by mhschmieder »

Thanks, but my concern is on pre-recorded tracks, which were originally done using a keyboard with LOTS of dynamics but no expression controller or breath controller.

Any re-do is going to lose the essence of the performance, just as with some jazz pieces that I originally did on the VL70m and tried to re-do with Sample Modeling's Kontakt-based libraries earlier. In that case I got out my WX5, but there was still no way to match the original phrasing and still sound passionate, organic, and fluid.

When I use MIDI for stuff in the JAZZ vein these days (that is, new vs. legacy projects), I am careful to record both MIDI and audio, and to use the WX5 exclusively. It's way more intuitive and natural for me than an Expression controller -- even Yamaha's with its smoother travel.

I may just have to switch back to Vienna Instruments for these non-jazz pieces though. As it is, I find the Sample Modeling timbre often does not match what I need anyway. In this particular Broadway/Musical/Big Band context though, it is exactly the kind of dirty/raunchy tone I want.

I'll probably just re-do the parts on real instruments when I have time to practice and set up mics. I've been holding off on recording live winds, as I haven't run through proper experiments with my mics yet and don't want to lose inertia on my projects until ready to do final mixes.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by Kurt Cowling »

I'm not sure I understand your question. We're these tracks played in while using SampleModeling VIs or something else? SampleModeling VIs have always required CC control of dynamics AFAIK. Your original post makes it seem like you played them in using SampleModeling VI but no CC. Doesn't add up to me. Is it possible you played them in while using some other VI? Can you just overdub breath control now and get what you want?
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by mhschmieder »

No; they predate SampleModeling by quite a few years. Just not as many as my VL70m tracks, which predate my owning a personal computer and thus are audio-only with no MIDI.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by Kurt Cowling »

I think you may just need to overdub breath control then if you want to use the SampleModeling VI. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by dave pine »

question about using latest SWAM MIDI with a expression pedal.... if you initially play a note quietly and continue to hold the note while increasing the exp velosity, does it get louder and more aggressive sounding? if it does, that'd be great... i think it's time to go buy an expression pedal
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by mhschmieder »

Hmm, not sure; I'll have to try that.

I may return to the Kontakt version of the saxes for now, as they honour note velocity as I recall. Good thing I didn't delete them!

None of what I'm bringing up is meant to be seen as complaints; I applaud SampleModeling for pushing more towards BC and WC as well as EXP based playing. It's just that I have legacy projects that I'd rather not split into a gazillion articulations just to get correct phrasing using VSL et al (and for which I need the raunchy character of SampleModeling).

SWAM takes better to WX5 input. Ironically I had deleted much of my BC-based CC's in some tracks due to not getting the expected results in Kontakt, but the tracks that currently challenge me are ones that were done strictly with keyboard entry. I have no idea what I originally triggered when I entered the parts; it might have been from a Kurzweil PC3X.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by Kurt Cowling »

dave pine wrote:question about using latest SWAM MIDI with a expression pedal.... if you initially play a note quietly and continue to hold the note while increasing the exp velosity, does it get louder and more aggressive sounding? if it does, that'd be great... i think it's time to go buy an expression pedal
Yes, that's exactly how they work. Very expressive. The trick is that they REQUIRE a CC to play at all. Could be foot pedal. I use a keyboard with a BC input. Others use an actual wind controller (Yamaha WX or Akai). I find using a foot pedal to be the least satisfying approach.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by dave pine »

cool.. sweet
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by dpdan »

mh,
you said the old tracks have lots of dynamics, if the dynamics you are referring to are continuously changing data,... then use the "reassign continuous data" feature in DP, you can convert data so that the SWAM engine will use it correctly.

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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by mhschmieder »

Dan, thanks, but unfortunately it was pure keyboard note entry so it's all via note velocity, which has an ENTIRELY different meaning in the Sample Modeling context (it has nothing to do with the aggressiveness of attack or even note volume).

I may have a tool that can map note velocity to MIDI CC's.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by mhschmieder »

Doesn't look like DP supports this function, but the product whose name shall not be mentioned DOES. I refuse to download that product just for this task though. I'll see whether StudioOne can do it.
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by dpdan »

I understand your dilemma, been there myself with other Sample Modeling products and when all we have is velocity it just isn't enough to make the library "sing" like it can.

I think Sibelius will take your MIDI file/track and from the notes' velocity it will create mod wheel data from it.

Good luck!
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Re: Latest Sample Modeling SWAM update -- how to get dynamic

Post by mhschmieder »

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. My Sibelius demo has expired and I haven't bought it yet, but I do own both Notion (now part of the PreSonus group) and Finale. I'll give those a try. I checked StudioOne last night and it doesn't have that feature.

I may just have to re-do these parts, but if I'm going to do that, I may as well play my REAL woodwinds. I would do that for final takes anyway; it's just that I have more work to do on these pieces and having the correct dynamics and phrasing NOW will better help me make decisions on what other parts to overlay (or strip away, since often "less is more").

I actually haven't had a chance yet to try ANY of the SWAM versions with my WX-5 -- wherever it is (I moved recently and some things haven't reappeared yet due to it being a rushed 48-hour job).
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