How do you folks write for a symphony or film orchestra?

MikeInBoston · Post by **MikeInBoston** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:16 pm

The piece (or pieces) could be for a film or for a live concert.

Let's say you need a MIDI mockup, a conductor's score, and individual parts.

Do you use keyswitches on your tracks to switch articulations, or do you put the different articulations (e.g. legato, staccato, etc.) on separate tracks in DP?

And what do you do about printed notation. DP doesn't seem to be up to the task for a full printed score with all the trimmings, or is it? Do you port a MIDI file from DP to Sibelius or Finale for the notation? Or do you actually write the music in Sibelius or Finale, and then bring the MIDI file into DP for the MIDI mockup?

I'm trying to figure out the best way to proceed. There's still no perfect and efficient way to do this, is there?

Thank you, my friends.

Mike

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:35 pm

MikeInBoston wrote:The piece (or pieces) could be for a film or for a live concert.

Let's say you need a MIDI mockup, a conductor's score, and individual parts.

Ok...

MikeInBoston wrote:Do you use keyswitches on your tracks to switch articulations, or do you put the different articulations (e.g. legato, staccato, etc.) on separate tracks in DP?

I use, among many other things, keyswitches, especially for changing an instrument's articulations. Having one track per instrument is the best way of doing it for me. I know there are folks who almost have one track per articulation, but personally I can't work like that (reminds me of the old Gigastudio days where that was the norm!). That just feels clumsy and bloated... Try following a line in a score that jumps from staff to staff... and having unnecessary hundreds of extra tracks? No thanks! Keyswitches for me, thank you

There are also certain considerations if you work under tight deadlines. If this is the case, you need to add that to the equation and make sure your workflow allows you to waste as little time as possible for repetitive things, such as setting things up, having a main project folder structure, etc. The only way to deal effectively with that is developing a great template.
This template is ESSENTIAL for projects with miserable deadlines!

MikeInBoston wrote:And what do you do about printed notation. DP doesn't seem to be up to the task for a full printed score with all the trimmings, or is it? Do you port a MIDI file from DP to Sibelius or Finale for the notation? Or do you actually write the music in Sibelius or Finale, and then bring the MIDI file into DP for the MIDI mockup?

I haven't done scores for real performers for ages. Members like MLC, Frodo and company could tell you more about it. I think they start their projects in DP or Finale depending on the goal, the kind of project it is, if they are going to use real players, if they need a great (or average) mockup or not, etc.
What I know, is these guys obviously don't use DP for their scores! They use Finale or Sibelius.

MikeInBoston wrote:I'm trying to figure out the best way to proceed. There's still no perfect and efficient way to do this, is there?

Sure there is! It takes experience to get all the workflow flowing. And every project is usually different, but a good flexible workflow and solid knowledge can take care of everything for you

We have it (relatively) very easy, man! With all this technology, we better produce great results... The tools are there. There's no excuse

MikeInBoston · Post by **MikeInBoston** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:34 am

Thanks, FMiguelez. I can always count on you for being one of the first to respond. For that I am very grateful.

Yes, I'm beginning to think that keyswitches are the way to go. Different articulations on separate tracks (which I have been doing) becomes a nightmare of organization. And then if you want to print out a score, you have to merge all these articulations together to end up with a single part for each instrument. Jeesh!

It's the notation thing I'm really concerned about. Going between DP and Sibelius or Finale scares me. I'd rather compose in DP than a notation program, but it seems like a huge amount of work to take that and sculpt it into readable notation in another program. What do the Hollywood composers do? If Danny Elfman creates a score in DP, let's say, how do his assistants and orchestrators take that DP file and produce a score for a big orchestra?

As you can see, I'm still trying to find the right workflow from beginning to end.

Thanks so much.

Mike

crduval · Post by **crduval** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:12 am

Just curious - can key switched articulations be recognized by DP (like a MIDI synth patch change message) so that if you go to print out a score in a scoring program the annotations for the articulations are automatically added to the score?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

groove · Post by **groove** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:13 am

I compose in DP.

1 track per instruments and use keyswitches for articulations.

When the comp is done, I duplicate my chunck, remove every unnecessary tracks (aux, master, etc.), erase all keyswitches in the MIDI tracks, erase all cc info, quantize everything - even the duration - set the velocity of all event to 100 (some notation programs discard MIDI events with very small velocity) then export to MIDI file. (If you hire a copyist, this is the file you give him/her along with a audio file of the mockup.)

In Sibelius, I proof read, write articulations, dynamics, signatures, tempos whatever and all the rest.

Remember, musicians are happy when they get a good, informative and easily readable score. You will save time in the recording sessions and get the respect of your musicians.

(post edited for clarity...)

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:24 am

mikeInBoston wrote:Thanks, FMiguelez. I can always count on you for being one of the first to respond. For that I am very grateful.

My pleasure, Mike

Usually, if your music will be performed by a real orchestra, then the mockup is not too important and works more as a reference for the director. But if the mockup IS the production and will be aired, then it must be top-notch. I'd use Finale for the former and DP for the latter (who needs a great mockup when the music will be played live, or a great score when everything's going to be sequenced?).

I know Finale can switch articulations according to the articulations in the printed score and it can play VSL's samples, but doing rubato and programming expressive playack... I don't know.
I still need to do lots of experimenting in Finale to see how easy is to program the expressiveness, but something tells me it is DP for makng great mockups and Fnale for creating great scores.

Porting a great sequence into Finale, or a great score into DP, must be lots of work and require a good workflow. For the former I've read people do all the quantizing and preparation n DP, so it translates easily, but this sonds easier said than done. I am currently working on such a project, so I suppose I'll find out soon enough.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:27 am

For printed scores I use Finale start to finish. No exceptions as I find it incredibly fast. For articulations I use different "layers" assigned to the the virtuous articulations. Only 4 layers are possible in Finale so in a pinch I'll use keyswitching.

MikeInBoston · Post by **MikeInBoston** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:53 pm

Wow, so much great advice!

I really like composing in DP because of the flexibility of a MIDI editor (and DP has a nice one), so I'll probably follow groove's suggestion about sending the MIDI file to Sibelius. Of course, I'm aware of the fact that it's like doing the project TWICE. It doesn't seem to be very efficient, although I guess you can become efficient at doing it.

Mr. MIDI Life Crisis, I envy you that you're comfortable never leaving your notation program. I'm not sure I could do that at this point, although I'm pretty comfortable with notation in general. As a matter of fact, when I first started using MIDI editors, I HATED IT, but slowly I got used to it, and now it's kind of second nature.

Thanks, guys.

Mike

dosuna11 · Post by **dosuna11** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:59 pm

With the exception of classical music, I find importing MIDI files into Sibelius is far more work than just writing the charts in Sibelius even if I quantize in DP. It still imports somewhat wonky. (Copyist!)

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:07 pm

MikeInBoston wrote:Going between DP and Sibelius or Finale scares me.

Heck, Sibelius and Finale scare me, period! And I've worked with both of them much longer than DP.

MikeInBoston wrote:What do the Hollywood composers do?

They hire assistants to do that kind of dirty work for them.

There is probably no right way of transitioning from a DAW to a notation program. And I feel for you, I think notation programs are the most fundamentally flawed of any creative design software... there just aren't enough players competing on the field to have actually gotten it right, I hate Finale and Sibelius about equally. Sibelius is too rigged and controlling, where as Finale ends up being tedious and finicky. I freak whenever I'm faced with a project where I need to create a score.

Probably the best way is to output the DP8 MIDI, and open it in an empty Sibelius/Finale file. But first you'll probably want to duplicate the sequence, delete all extraneous tracks, clear any MIDI automation, and quantize your MIDI. Even go through and make sure your releases are in the right places so they very clean, precise MIDI events without breaks. Clean up the MIDI as much as you can in DP, then open it in Sibelius/Finale. Next, copy/paste the notes into a much cleaner, more organized score file. Then you'll have to manually recreate all dynamics and articulations. It's a lot of work, but if you're systematic about it, you can do it fairy quickly.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:12 pm

Aside from the need to quantize and re quantize and then do more corrections, if I see the notes I can better analyze and develop themes, motifs, counterpoint, harmony, etc., refine structure and instrumentation and orchestration. I've worked in most possible ways, starting from sequencing, part sequencing and part note entry and all note entry and find visual notation best. The downside is mockups tend to be "rigid" and sound stilted but it's up to the conductor/performers to bring those scores to life. For works that never get played live it's DP for ME.

MikeInBoston · Post by **MikeInBoston** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:40 pm

Ha ha!! You guys are such a downer (just kidding). That's why I wrote in my first post.....

....."There's still no perfect and efficient way to do this, is there?"

I kind of suspected it wouldn't be easy, but you guys are confirming it. I was hoping I was missing something, some secret method for marrying an exciting DAW mockup to its printed score.

Oh well, I guess we're all in the same boat using the same not-so-well-integrated software.
Hmmm.

Thanks, guys.
Mike

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:32 pm

The problem with playback from a notation app is that is is precise. If you port it to Finale or use Hyperscribe you can have Finale playback the recorded performance and display the "perfect" notation. The perfect way (IMO is to notate it in Finale (or Sibelius if you prefer) and get real musicians to record it. A nice luxury if you or your client can afford it.

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:01 pm

I keep thinking that I will learn to compose in DP but I'm so comfortable working with notation first.

It could be that I am not a much of a keyboard player, I don't know.

bdr · Post by **bdr** » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:54 am

In the past I've used a very similar process to groove. Sometimes I've also printed out the parts from DPs quickscribe and then played it into Sibelius live as I'm pretty quick at that. I also have an extensive knowledge of short cuts in Sibelius so I can get the scores looking good pretty quickly.. However I agree with MLC that I compose much better in notation rather than sequencing. I would love to compose to film in notation but its very difficult to add electronic sequencing/ loops etc to Sibelius.

I have to say that in my experience even when my mock ups are going to be replaced with real instruments that I need to make the mock ups as good as possible because the filmmakers can't make the aural leap from a mediocre mock up to what it could sound like when played live. And then there was the case where the director preferred the MIDI to the real.....

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