V-Racks in the Mixer

[Paulformer]

A problem I've had with VI's in V racks is how to freeze tracks? Am I missing something? To freeze or even bounce a track you have to select the MIDI track and its v instrument track and if the v instrument is in a v rack I can't see how to select it. Can anyone help?


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[Shooshie]

Just wanted to let you know something about V-racks that was a deal breaker for me:

You can't automate them.. Or at least I don't know how to. The Automation section in the mixing console is gone on V-racks. And oddly, you can't easily take a channel from the V-rack and put it into your session.

If you're just using them as bussing and generally adjusting levels, then i'm sure you'll be fine.

But I like to have the option without having to go through a bunch of extra steps and add an aux track, set the input/output, etc.

Now, I just put all my return audio tracks in a folder, close it up. Set the mixer to NOT jump around, like you said, and it accomplishes the same thing.

**also I don't use chunks, never have. So maybe there's something I'm missing there.

Don't mean to rain on your parade, Just wanted to maybe give you a heads up about that. A few years back I made a whole V-rack template, then realized I couldn't automate.. then it took me a day or so to replicate the V-rack as normal Aux tracks..

Cheers!

It's not the V-Rack fader that you need to be automating. It's the audio return. THAT you can automate, and that's more like a real MIDI instrument. You don't automate your YamahaTG77; you automate the audio track that's recording it.

If you want to automate the instrument itself, most instruments respond to MIDI automation. That is, you use MIDI-Learn to touch a fader, knob, or other control, then send a CC controller to it. They become linked, and from that point onward (until you reset it) that CC controller operates that VI parameter. (in the V-Rack)

There's no reason to feel as if you can't automate V-Racks. The problem is a perception problem; you look at V-Racks and think those are tracks, like in Logic, but they are just instruments. They respond to MIDI learn and MIDI automation, but channel automation is for the audio tracks that pick up the return audio from the MIDI Instrument.

Granted, some VI's do not allow MIDI Learn, or MIDI automation. Don't buy those. Buy good VIs that utilize various means of control, especially MIDI Learn. The "can't automate V-Racks" argument is an extremely shallow one, and doesn't hold much water, if any. Only very rarely.

Shooshie

[Marc7777]

Well perhaps there are a few ways to use the V-Rack.

I use to use it as a place to hold my AUDIO returns from VEP. and I am absolutely certain that you can't automate that. The buttons are gone. If there is a way, please tell me! I'd be excited to hear.

Why automate that channel you ask? Plugins. Yes, volume, pan etc can be done with MIDI. But often I want to automate an EQ or a bypass or whatever, and you can't.

That's what I was referring to. I don't have any outboard synth gear like you mention with the Yamaha so I can't comment on how that works.

not trying to argue, just explaining. I'd be very happy if I was proven wrong.

Cheers!

[Shooshie]

Well perhaps there are a few ways to use the V-Rack.

I use to use it as a place to hold my AUDIO returns from VEP. and I am absolutely certain that you can't automate that. The buttons are gone. If there is a way, please tell me! I'd be excited to hear.

Put the audio tracks in the sequence. Use V-Racks for instruments, and in some cases, for audio or aux tracks. But here's the thing about that: the temptation is to use V-Racks for a particular audio setup that you want to use in many sequences, but you don't want to have to set it up in each one. So, you just import a V-Rack, and you're in business.

But there's more than one way to import a V-Rack. The V-Rack is an actual chunk. You can drag that chunk into a sequence via the Tracks Overview Window, and it will add its contents to that sequence. So, if you have a bunch of files that need a particular component of audio tracks added, including returns from VE Pro, you can drag the entire V-Rack chunk (from the Chunks Window) to the Tracks Overview, and it's just like having that V-Rack, except that your audio tracks are now in the sequence where they can be automated. Close the V-Rack, because you don't need it now.

So, when setting up V-Racks, set up those with instruments separately from those with audio or aux tracks. You'll be wanting to keep the instrumental V-Racks for use in the project, but you'll want to copy the audio V-Racks to the sequence, and close those V-Racks. Can't close them if they have working instruments in them, so keep them separate.

Now, do they import plugins along with the tracks? I don't remember for sure, but I don't think so. If not, you can save their plugins, naming each saved set of plugins with the track name, then add them later, one channel strip at a time.

Shooshie

[dewdman42]

as already stated, instruments in V-rack tracks can usually be automated with MIDI for plugins that support that. Some do not. Its unfortunate that DP does not provide a MIDI learn capability in a generic way that can allow us to map any MIDI CC to any VST/AU parameter, especially on V-Racks. Or if they would allow us to send non-MIDI automation data from sequences over to V-rack tracks, etc.. something. its a solvable routing issue which could be solved and IMHO would make V-Racks just a little bit more useful then they already are.

One work around, for cases where you are dealing with a plugin that does not support MIDI automation, is to use BlueCatAudio's patchwork plugin. One of the things it has built in is the ability to map MIDI CC's to plugin parameters. So basically with that you can automate any V-Rack plugin you want... I imagine there might be some other products that can provide this also (plogue bidule maybe?).

V-racks are really useful for hosting instruments and FX which will be reused a lot across different sequences, particularly when you want them to maintain exactly the same preset or settings, and ESPECIALLY when they involve a lot of sample data and other resource hogging stuff.

When you need automation, the automation needs to happen in the sequence, not the V-rack, and then its just a question of the the V-rack-hosted plugin responding to that automation just like as if it was an external MIDI device of some kind.

As stated earlier, you would not want rely on the V-rack itself for maintaining a certain "mix" of tracks in terms of volume levels of each V-Track track. Think of them as a collection of external sound producing devices, their levels should be optimized merely for best dynamics and S/N from each one, and then as stated by shooshie, you automate your mix back in the actual sequence when the sound comes into the sequence mixer.

But I suppose in the case of using V-rack for chunking songs together in sequence blocks, you could certainly establish a certain mix in the V-Rack mixer..including use of FX and other stuff...and then do only minimal mix automation in each sequence on the returned audio so that the "mix" is consistent between chunk to chunk. Could get a little weird that way trying to rely on the V-rack mixer for a consistent mix, unless you aren't doing any mix automation of any kind...in which case why not.

[dewdman42]

Looks to me like the DP9 MIDI learn feature is enabled on V-rack plugin instances all, and that might be a solution also for automating v-rack plugins that don't respond to MIDI on their own, though its quite possible this MIDI learn feature only works with external MIDI controllers, as opposed to receiving MIDI from a sequence MIDI track. However, I can only test the demo version of DP9 and basically it crashed on me a dozen times in 5 minutes while trying to do this.

[Shooshie]

Looks to me like the DP9 MIDI learn feature is enabled on V-rack plugin instances all, and that might be a solution also for automating v-rack plugins that don't respond to MIDI on their own, though its quite possible this MIDI learn feature only works with external MIDI controllers, as opposed to receiving MIDI from a sequence MIDI track. However, I can only test the demo version of DP9 and basically it crashed on me a dozen times in 5 minutes while trying to do this.

I have not tried this feature yet. I've been a little reluctant to get involved with Custom Consoles, the resuscitated feature they used to make this work. It was always buggy during setup, and one learned to save after every move until one's console was complete. Then they generally worked forever without crashing, but the setup itself was... um... delicate.

I'd hoped they'd gone over that and sussed out the loose nuts, tightened the screws, oiled the gears. Looks like that will have to happen in the next release.

Shooshie

[dewdman42]

Yea messed around with the DP9 demo a few minutes before removing it from my machine. It crashed a bunch of times in a row while trying this stuff. I hope others are having a better experience with DP9, I will wait.

But what I was able to get to work, was I could see the MIDI learn button at the bottom of the effects window, even when hosted on a v-rack. however, when you follow the instructions to try to configure a control from the plugin to a MIDI control, it does not respond at all when attempting this from a v-rack hosted plugin. Going into the controller definition screen where you can manually specify target and source, the V-Rack hosted plugins are not there.

So basically..that won't work.

See the other option I gave though, the BlueCatAudio patchwork plugin does allow this mapping and will work on a V-rack.

MOTU is definitely not providing a great solution for MIDI learn, I have to say, and even what they did provide, again left V-racks out in the cold

[bayswater]

But what I was able to get to work, was I could see the MIDI learn button at the bottom of the effects window, even when hosted on a v-rack. however, when you follow the instructions to try to configure a control from the plugin to a MIDI control, it does not respond at all when attempting this from a v-rack hosted plugin. Going into the controller definition screen where you can manually specify target and source, the V-Rack hosted plugins are not there.

So basically..that won't work.

I can put a VI (e.g. Proton) in a V-Rack, set it up to play from a MIDI track, click on the MIDI Learn button, move a controller on my Keylab61, move a parameter on the Proton, and from then on, I can control the parameter from the Keylab. If I do this for a VI in a sequence, and then move the VI to a V-Rack the MIDI Learn connection is lost. I can do the same with an effect like an EQ placed in the VI channel strip.

When doing these assignments, a Console window opens up and the new assignments appear with flashing red boxes until both source and destination have been moved.

[dewdman42]

right, that's what I meant. its not supported in v-racks.

the BlueCatAudio plugin works automating v-rack plugins though.

[bayswater]

right, that's what I meant. its not supported in v-racks.

the BlueCatAudio plugin works automating v-rack plugins though.

We're not on the same page. In my post above, both the VI and the effect are in a V-Rack. (I fixed the typo)

[dewdman42]

you said when you move it to a V-rack the MIDI learn was "lost". What did you mean?

I tried a dozen crashing times to configure this before I removed DP9 from my machine and don't plan to reinstall, so maybe you can try it for sure and provide clear instructions for a workaround for how to configure MIDI learn on a v-rack plugin. didn't work for me at all. I didn't try moving it from a sequence after it was already created there to see if it could be moved to the V-rack and somehow retain the MIDI connection, but all the direct ways of doing it were definitely not there. V-rack's were excluded from that.

[bayswater]

you said when you move it to a V-rack the MIDI learn was "lost". What did you mean?

Set up a VI in the main sequence and use MIDI learn to control a parameter. Move the VI to a V-Rack, and the connection between the controller and the parameter is lost.

I tried a dozen crashing times to configure this before I removed DP9 from my machine and don't plan to reinstall, so maybe you can try it for sure and provide clear instructions for a workaround for how to configure MIDI learn on a v-rack plugin. didn't work for me at all. I didn't try moving it from a sequence after it was already created there to see if it could be moved to the V-rack and somehow retain the MIDI connection, but all the direct ways of doing it were definitely not there. V-rack's were excluded from that.

Don't know what I can say about workarounds. I didn't use a workaround, I just clicked on the learn button, moved a source, and selected a destination. I didn't do anything in the Consoles window.

As for crashing and bugs in V9: a lot of people reported a lot of bugs. I tried to repeat a lot of them and with maybe 3 or 4 exceptions, I didn't experience any of them. Those I did see, I reported, and I think they were all fixed in 9.01. I guess this thing with MIDI Learn is another of those problems.

[dewdman42]

you still haven't explained how to make it work in a V-rack. If the connection was "lost" then how was it working in a V-rack?

[bayswater]

You make it work in a V-rack exactly the same way as you make it work when it's not in a V-rack.

1. Create a VI track in a V-Rack.
2. Click the MIDI Learn button.
3. Move a controller.
4. Click on a VI control.

Do the same for effects on the VI track channel strip inserts.

If you create the VI track in a sequence instead of a V-Rack, the same steps work. If you then move the VI track into a V-Rack, the MIDI learn connection is lost. So don't do that. Create it in the V-Rack in the first place.