V-Racks in the Mixer

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Guitar Gaz
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V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Guitar Gaz »

I have had something of a revelation in the past few days - I finally realised that checking the "Scrolling the Mixing Board to the selection" checkbox in the Prefs for Consolidated Windows was interrupting the workflow and that primarily I work with V-Racks predominantly for fader levels etc. - so after unchecking it I can have a much smaller mixer window and that all the faders I use stay in the same place. I have the Show/Hide Track selector set as a keystroke to X so can easily turn on or off other faders when I need them - but otherwise the V-Rack faders serve most of my needs for the bulk of my sound sources.

Previously I would look at the mixer and not be able to find what I was looking for quickly as loads of faders were constantly being added. Using V-Rack faders only in the Mixer Window has been a great change for me - and almost takes me back to the Opcode Vision days - one of my gripes about DP was that every time you change a Chunk you get a completely different mixer with faders all over the place. Now I basically use the same V-Rack set up for every track and so have a fixed mixer (you have to unselect tracks in the Show/Hide of the Mixer Window at first but after that no new faders will be added).

My current V-Rack setup has about 5 V-Racks for guitars and bass, 1 or more for vocals (you can add or remove per project), 1 for Superior Drummer, 1 for Reason (I can balance Reason sounds in the Reason Mixer), and then adding the odd V-Rack for Arturia Mini Moog, Wavestation , or M1. So you can set the V-Rack per project and this will work across all Chunks - bliss for me. Took me ages to get round to this - discovering V-Racks in the first place was a great leap forward for me, but now this has improved workflow so much more.

V-Racks are great!

Apart from the tiddly play, record buttons in the Sequencer Window (do they have to be that small?) which makes clicking on and off when holding a guitar somewhat hit or miss, DP8 is working great for me.
Gary Shepherd
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Marc7777 »

Just wanted to let you know something about V-racks that was a deal breaker for me:

You can't automate them.. Or at least I don't know how to. The Automation section in the mixing console is gone on V-racks. And oddly, you can't easily take a channel from the V-rack and put it into your session.

If you're just using them as bussing and generally adjusting levels, then i'm sure you'll be fine.

But I like to have the option without having to go through a bunch of extra steps and add an aux track, set the input/output, etc.

Now, I just put all my return audio tracks in a folder, close it up. Set the mixer to NOT jump around, like you said, and it accomplishes the same thing.

**also I don't use chunks, never have. So maybe there's something I'm missing there.

Don't mean to rain on your parade, Just wanted to maybe give you a heads up about that. A few years back I made a whole V-rack template, then realized I couldn't automate.. then it took me a day or so to replicate the V-rack as normal Aux tracks..

Cheers!
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by FMiguelez »

I suppose the usefulness of V-Racks depends on what your goal is.

Personally, I LOVE V-Racks for virtual instruments. All the automation for those normally is done in the MIDI tracks of a normal sequence, and the super advantage is that they remain loaded even if you switch chunks (which is a vital part of my template and workflow). I could not work like this if the VIs reloaded the samples every time I change chunks!
I automate dozens of CC parameters for all my VIs this way. This is the heart of my template, and I could not be happier with the workflow.

I used to have most of my Fx returns in V-Racks, but like you said, because of lack of automation facilities in there, I ported them back to the main chunks, and they work great. And this turned out to be better anyway, because it gives me much more flexibility as to the number of chunks I can use and how I automate them.

So for me the perfect solution has been to keep all the VIs in V-Racks, and keep the Fx returns in normal sequences. That way I get the best of both worlds with more flexibility than I need.

I think V-Racks is one of the features that sets DP apart from the bunch.

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Guitar Gaz
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Guitar Gaz »

FMiguelez wrote:I suppose the usefulness of V-Racks depends on what your goal is.


So for me the perfect solution has been to keep all the VIs in V-Racks, and keep the Fx returns in normal sequences. That way I get the best of both worlds with more flexibility than I need.

I think V-Racks is one of the features that sets DP apart from the bunch.
Thanks for this - I get what you mean above. The flexibility is the key. And the switching between chunks is so much easier with V-Racks.
Gary Shepherd
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Guitar Gaz
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Guitar Gaz »

Marc7777 wrote:
**also I don't use chunks, never have. So maybe there's something I'm missing there.

Cheers!
I understand what you say about automation - that isn't a problem for me. I am just intrigued by your comment above.

How can you not use chunks? Does that mean you do everything in a project on one chunk - in a linear fashion?

I don't know what sort of music you do - I can't imagine working that way - I am use to the sequencer method with building up a song from separate chunks - and working on those chunks is easier when they are in smaller sections. For me I am composing - and therefore I don't start out knowing the final arrangement or what the song actually is. I have ideas or sketches which get fleshed out and things change as I go along.

But I guess if you are using DP to record already composed pieces, then probably the chunk method is not required - DP just becomes a digital tape recorder.

So if you mean by not using chunks that you use just one chunk - then yes there is not much point to V-Racks - automation aside.
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by FMiguelez »

Not using chunks in DP is like having a great car but prefer walking in a rainy day :shock:
I mean, you can do it, but... Really?

I use so many that I wish we had chunk folders...
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Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Marc7777 »

I compose for TV and film.

I have a large template - around 700 MIDI tracks and 300 audio returns via VEPro.

These templates are customized per show i'm working on.

Basically I start from my template - Save as - Create a separate project file for EACH cue I write.

I know some composers use Chunks as each cue, but i've had a few corrupted files in my day, and I don't want THAT much information to be in one DP file.

Also, with massive templates, switching chunks can be a bit tricky. DP no likey.

And for song writing, yes I guess I write in "linear fashion".. never thought about doing it a different way.. I guess you're saying that you use a chunk for a verse, chunk for a chorus, chunk for an intro, etc.? That seems more confusing to me...

To each their own I guess.. tomato.. tomato.. (wait that doesn't work when typing :lol: )

As long as the music sounds good, you're doing it right ;)


Cheers!

~M
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Shooshie »

Marc7777 wrote:Don't mean to rain on your parade, Just wanted to maybe give you a heads up about that. A few years back I made a whole V-rack template, then realized I couldn't automate.. then it took me a day or so to replicate the V-rack as normal Aux tracks..
It doesn't bother most people who use V-Racks if other people choose not to. That's their business, and it doesn't even cloud the sky over our V-Racks, much less rain. We've known since the beginning that V-Racks don't have an automation channel. On the other hand, most virtual instruments allow you to control them with MIDI controllers (Control Change data), so it turns out they ARE automatable; just in a different way. Many even do MIDI-learn, which makes it quick and easy to set up controllers for any function you want to automate.

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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by BKK-OZ »

I am away from my DP machine until after the holiday period, so please forgive my question - no doubt ignorant and easily answered if I fired up DP myself.

I have not used V-Racks before, for the simple reason that, although I tend to use the same VI's for all my stuff, I use different sound sets/patches for different pieces. Can I use multiple V-Racks in the same sequence/chunk? Say, for example, if I wanted to have drum sound X in an instance of Maschine, and then, in another V-Rack in another sequence, have another sound set, can I do that?
Cheers,
BK

…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Shooshie »

BKK-OZ wrote:I am away from my DP machine until after the holiday period, so please forgive my question - no doubt ignorant and easily answered if I fired up DP myself.

I have not used V-Racks before, for the simple reason that, although I tend to use the same VI's for all my stuff, I use different sound sets/patches for different pieces. Can I use multiple V-Racks in the same sequence/chunk? Say, for example, if I wanted to have drum sound X in an instance of Maschine, and then, in another V-Rack in another sequence, have another sound set, can I do that?
Multiple instances of VIs are not just possible, but common; it's really the rule for greatest utilization of multiple-threading. Each instance is usually a CPU thread of its own. So, yes, you could easily have several instances of Kontakt or Vienna, each with many instruments and/or articulations. You could put them in different V-Racks if you want, but you don't have to. You may have many instances in one V-Rack. However, using multiple V-Racks allows you to enable or disable them as needed for extra CPU power. The whole point of V-Racks was originally that you could leave one set of instruments enabled for all chunks, which would not have to load when you switch chunks. But I keep several V-Racks set up for use in any new file. Just load the V-Racks you want into any file to make that set of instruments available for all the chunks in that file. It's a quick instrument template for any type of job. Very convenient.

And not just instruments. If you are adding audio to a series of MIDI-only chunks, you can also include master tracks, submasters, and section aux stems. But that's getting astray of what you asked, so I'll not elaborate here.

Shoosh
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Guitar Gaz »

Marc7777 wrote:I compose for TV and film.

And for song writing, yes I guess I write in "linear fashion".. never thought about doing it a different way.. I guess you're saying that you use a chunk for a verse, chunk for a chorus, chunk for an intro, etc.? That seems more confusing to me...

To each their own I guess.. tomato.. tomato.. (wait that doesn't work when typing :lol: )

As long as the music sounds good, you're doing it right ;)


Cheers!

~M
Yes agree - this is not an argument - I am just interested. However there is a terminology difference maybe?

Unless you record the whole song in one take and all your overdubs in one take then you are breaking the song down into sequences or chunks. Whether you have a separate chunk for chorus and verse, or whether you have one long chunk broken down by markers into sections, if you loop the instrumental section while doing a solo, or looping the verse to get the vocal right, then you are using sequences. If you choose not to have separate to chunks to work on those sections, then to me it just makes it more difficult editing (especially if by accident you go back to the start of the song when you were trying to work on the 3rd chorus). Even if the song is completely written and arranged, smaller chunks are easier to edit with.

And as for writing - again I would come up with an idea for a verse say, I wouldn't necessarily be able to write the chorus straight away, and I would be working on lyrics too. So a song is naturally broken down into sections - whether we call them chunks or sequences.

Sadly I am not a brilliant musician and cannot play a perfect take of a whole song all the way through. And I write in stages, and work on ideas and sometimes go off on tangents. So Chunks are perfect for this for me. But maybe for others that is messy and confusing and they prefer the purity of a long chunk. Although of course in the past in the studio we used to splice the actual tape and stick 2 different takes together, so what digital computer recording enabled that much more easily.

But you are very much correct - whatever works for you is great - and we can all give tips that we find help us - and have an insight into other working methods. Thats why I posted about V-Racks. DP is clearly a flexible software that does not force you to work in a certain way. All power to that.
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Marc7777 »

Shooshie wrote:It doesn't bother most people who use V-Racks if other people choose not to. That's their business, and it doesn't even cloud the sky over our V-Racks, much less rain. We've known since the beginning that V-Racks don't have an automation channel. On the other hand, most virtual instruments allow you to control them with MIDI controllers (Control Change data), so it turns out they ARE automatable; just in a different way. Many even do MIDI-learn, which makes it quick and easy to set up controllers for any function you want to automate.
Completely agree. And to be clear, I wasn't "dissing" V-Racks.. I just wanted to point that out in case it ended up being a deal breaker, as it was for me. Like I said, I spent many days creating a template around V-Racks, then realized that there was no Automation. Thus wasting valuable days.. that's all.

90% of the time, you're right in that most automation can be done with MIDI. but what I come across often, and maybe it's just me, but I put delays and other effects ON those return audio channels. And say that I want to automate an EQ or automate a Delay to mute after a section, or do anything "Post VI world" , that's impossible to do on a V-rack channel.

Now, if DP would make a function that could EASILY take a channel from a V-rack and put it into the sequence - with a click of a button, then I would be a happy camper. But since that seemingly isn't the case, I just made a bunch of Aux channels, hide them in a folder, and automate them if necessary (for the 10% of the time that I need them). Same thing.. IMHO.

I certainly didn't know about the lack of automation, so I didn't want to assume He, or anyone knew about it either. So again, not arguing or saying V-Racks are bad.. I just wanted to make people aware of that fact in case it's a deal breaker and they would waste a lot of time setting that up.

Have a great weekend everyone! :)

~M
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by BKK-OZ »

Shooshie wrote:Multiple instances of VIs are not just possible, but common; it's really the rule for greatest utilization of multiple-threading. Each instance is usually a CPU thread of its own. So, yes, you could easily have several instances of Kontakt or Vienna, each with many instruments and/or articulations. You could put them in different V-Racks if you want, but you don't have to. You may have many instances in one V-Rack. However, using multiple V-Racks allows you to enable or disable them as needed for extra CPU power. The whole point of V-Racks was originally that you could leave one set of instruments enabled for all chunks, which would not have to load when you switch chunks.
Shoosh
Thank you for taking the time to do that, much appreciated.

I don't know why, but I had it stuck in my head that I could only have one V-Rack per project, your explanation clears up that misconception nicely.

Though I am on holidays for a week or so, I am keen to get back to DP soon, and in following this thread, as often happens here @ the 'nation, I have learned some valuable things that will no doubt help my work flow.

Have a good and safe easter everyone.
Last edited by BKK-OZ on Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,
BK

…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Shooshie »

BKK-OZ wrote:Have a good an safe easter everyone.
Same to you. And if you see any rabbits laying colored eggs, would you get a picture for me? I'm still trying to figure out how they do that.

Shoosh
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Re: V-Racks in the Mixer

Post by Shooshie »

Marc7777 wrote:I certainly didn't know about the lack of automation, so I didn't want to assume He, or anyone knew about it either. So again, not arguing or saying V-Racks are bad.. I just wanted to make people aware of that fact in case it's a deal breaker and they would waste a lot of time setting that up.

That's probably a good idea. Automation via MIDI is not nearly as easy to accomplish as track automation, so there are probably a lot of people who would prefer not to deal with it. I've developed my ways, but it would be awfully nice if MOTU could figure out a way to automate tracks in V-Racks.

Still, the advantages of V-Racks so radically outweighs the alternative (instruments in tracks in the sequence) that I will always champion that mode of working. But you're right that people should be made aware of the automation situation from the outset so that they know what to expect.

Shoosh
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