How do you fake a trill and make it sound real?

[MikeInBoston]

I don't have any trill patches yet, and I'm not able to play them in with a keyboard. Do any of you folks have a secret recipe that you'd like to share?

Thanks,

Mike

[David Polich]

What do you mean by a "trill"? A trill on a keyboard instrument? A brass instrument trill?
A string trill? A drum trill?

[MikeInBoston]

Hi David,

Thanks for replying. Yes, a trill for a flute or other wind instrument. Maybe even for strings. My problem is avoiding the "machine gun" effect of rapidly repeating notes. I've used the humanizing dialog with various settings, and I've achieved only marginal success. Also, I'm not sure how fast the 2 notes should be alternated. By the way, I'm thinking of long trills that extend over several measures, such as the whole woodwind section providing a background bed of sound for strings or brass in the foreground. I'm not too concerned about quick trills that are over in an instant.

Thank you,

Mike

[HCMarkus]

You need to have an instrument that is set up in mono/legato mode, so the attack triggers only when you play separated notes. Then overlap the notes in the trill.

[MikeInBoston]

Thank you. I will try that this afternoon.

Mike

[MIDI Life Crisis]

FWIW, drums being of indefinite or fixed pitch don't "trill" they "roll."

[FMiguelez]

Don't waste your time, MikeInBoston... if you want realistic trills or rolls, you will need a real sampled performance, especially for the former.

I mean, you can try tweaking attacks, releases, velocities and note lengths, but I doubt they will sound real like that at all. There are too many subtle interactions even with solo instruments, let alone a full string section, to be able to do it just by tweaking.

[Killahurts]

Don't waste your time, MikeInBoston... if you want realistic trills or rolls, you will need a real sampled performance, especially for the former.

I mean, you can try tweaking attacks, releases, velocities and note lengths, but I doubt they will sound real like that at all. There are too many subtle interactions even with solo instruments, let alone a full string section, to be able to do it just by tweaking.

Hate to say it, but this has been my experience as well.. nothing beats the real thing.. er..uh.. a sample of the real thing.

[HCMarkus]

I'd agree strings will sound better with a sample, but I think woodwinds trill ok if using mono source. Synths, too.

[Shooshie]

I understand what you're looking for, Mike in Boston. While our compatriots mean well in denying the viability of a "created" trill, I have to disagree with them. I'm going to show you a method to make trills easily and quickly. This is, of course, for those situations where an adequate trill isn't possible to play in. Maybe you don't have a MIDI keyboard handy. Maybe your technique does not make for a trill at the speed you wish to hear it. It doesn't matter the reason; all of use who have done this professionally, on the spot with people breathing down our necks know what it means to need to construct something quickly and easily, which also can be convincing. This video just demonstrates the basic construction techniques. It's up to you to provide the finishing touches.

I have analyzed literally thousands of trills and ornaments that were played in by professional pianists and by myself, and I can tell you a few things about them.
1) every person's trills are slightly different, so there is no "right way" once you get beyond a certain level of musicianship.
2) every trill by any given individual is slightly different, so their "right way" has quite an element of randomness. If that is not present, it doesn't sound like a trill.
3) You can create trills in the way you're about to see and compare them with those played in, and you will see virtually no difference EXCEPT:

• a) the initial notes may be stretched a little
  b) the final notes may be in the form of triplets (that is, faster)
  c) there is usually an exit ornament, but that depends wholly on style and circumstances. If you studied those, you know them. If not, there's no easy way to teach them; just try to do it by ear.

Ok, here's the link:
MIDI Trill Basics

This just shows you the basic trill. You have to decide what to do with the above mentioned exceptions, and as I said, they differ with the style and the circumstances. But the body of the trill? The ones in the video are about as good as most you'll hear played live. From here you can add an exit ornament, you can add dynamics (sometimes an fp followed by a crescendo is effective), and in most trills I recommend stretching the first note by about double, the second note by a little less, and then full speed on the rest until the final few notes, which will be determined by style.

What's cool about the technique in the video is that it's blink-and-you'll-miss-it FAST to create. I've created many of these for live use in concert, and even audiences of trained pianists were none the wiser.

Now, having said all that, IF you can play it in and create a stylistically pure trill that captures the effect you want, then by all means play it in. Sometimes either the keyboard isn't around, or the trill isn't in us. That's when you pull out the technique and wow everyone around you.

By the way, the search setting I used was created long ago, and like all searches you'll want to save it for future use. You should never have to recreate a search setting after the first time. Also, the settings in dialog boxes will retain their last values. You can do a lot of these in a hurry, because you don't need to recreate every step of the way.

Keep in mind the biggest secret of creating a great trill: don't tell anyone how you did it. If they KNOW you did it this way, they'll ALWAYS say it sounds bad. If you say you played it in, they'll say "wow!" Better not to say anything at all. If they ask, just say... "dude, it's a trill."

At home, I prefer to make trills with my Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller. I can trill all day on wind instruments, in any style. Or I can do it on piano, if you don't expect Van Cliburn quickness. But when the pressure is on, this technique suits me just fine.

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

Good post, Shoosh.

That will surely help.

If I may add something, creating a small accelerando at the beginning of the trill, and perhaps combining it with ritardando at the end (or even more accelerando), and some crescendo/decrescendo might help wind instruments as well.
The point would be to also get some variety in the overall tempo and dynamics of the trill.

Your suggestions definitely help making a trill sound more real, especially with a piano, and with the limitations Mike presented in his OP.

But you would agree that this is a second best measure in a best case scenario, yes?

What about an oboe, for instance? I was thinking of all those little delightful key noises that happen with wind instruments when trilling, the subtle "portamento" that occurs between the legato notes, etc. Those would never be there without samples...
Or how about a Horn lip trill? That would be even more frustrating if realism is the goal, would it not?

I suppose it's the same with crescendos (e.g., a trombone). One can draw a CC7 or CC11 curve, and even combine it with a filter so it gets brighter as it gets louder... But it just doesn't sound the same. Close, but not enough to fool anyone who knows what they are really supposed to sound like (like you obviously do, being a trained wind player).

I'm just saying all this so Mike doesn't have an unrealistic expectation as to the limits of imitating real instruments purely by MIDI-only means.

I don't mean to sound negative. I'm just being realistic (pun intended)

[MikeInBoston]

Wow! What a great response!

Shooshie, thank you so much for your reply and the video you suggested I watch. Both were very helpful and instructive (I had no idea you could split a note into little pieces with the scissors tool). I'm still trying to wrap my brain around what you did in the search dialog. I wish your preset was one of the presets supplied by Motu. I need to study your settings in the search dialog to try to reproduce it. Oh well, I'll get there.

FMiguelez, I know making trills this way is not the optimum solution, but I'm using Symphobia 1, which doesn't include any trills, and I can't afford to buy the other 2 packages. Actually, Symphobia 2 and 3 (Lumina) do not include trills for the ensemble woodwind section, so I'm out of luck even if I bought them.

One thing that I can't seem to figure out is how to put Kontact into mono mode, to force whatever patch is instantiated in it to play in a mono/legato fashion. Do any of you guys know?

Thanks to everyone,

Mike

[Shooshie]

Good post, Shoosh.

That will surely help.

If I may add something, creating a small accelerando at the beginning of the trill, and perhaps combining it with ritardando at the end (or even more accelerando), and some crescendo/decrescendo might help wind instruments as well.
The point would be to also get some variety in the overall tempo and dynamics of the trill.

That's exactly what I suggested in my post. (you're skimming me again, bro! ) That wasn't included in the video, because the vid was only about making the trill. The ornaments, tempos and dynamics are all specific to the situation and style, and there's not a video long enough to show how to do all of those possibilities. You either know what to do or you don't, but at least this shows you the mechanics of making a believable trill.

Your suggestions definitely help making a trill sound more real, especially with a piano, and with the limitations Mike presented in his OP.

But you would agree that this is a second best measure in a best case scenario, yes?

Oh, I think the trills I play and the trills I make are pretty much indistinguishable. I don't even remember when I've done it one way or the other, and I usually can't tell. Of course, I add ornaments, speed variations and dynamics.

What about an oboe, for instance? I was thinking of all those little delightful key noises that happen with wind instruments when trilling, the subtle "portamento" that occurs between the legato notes, etc. Those would never be there without samples...
Or how about a Horn lip trill? That would be even more frustrating if realism is the goal, would it not?

I can make trills with key noises. Sometimes I really don't want them. Remember, key noises are not desirable to an instrumentalist. We do our best to eliminate them. It's MIDI orchestrators who think key noises add "realism." An oboist with key noises really needs to get his or her Loreé fixed.

As for lip trills on brass instruments? Well, that depends on your sample set or modeler. But that begins to beg the question of why we use MIDI at all. If you want every last detail so that it's 100% like a real instrument, then that's way beyond the scope of this thread. It wasn't even possible 5 years ago, and may not be possible now without just recording a player with a horn.

I suppose it's the same with crescendos (e.g., a trombone). One can draw a CC7 or CC11 curve, and even combine it with a filter so it gets brighter as it gets louder... But it just doesn't sound the same. Close, but not enough to fool anyone who knows what they are really supposed to sound like (like you obviously do, being a trained wind player).

No, I disagree. I can get these things sounding real enough that you won't know the difference, and even I often don't know where I've done it that way or if I played it in.

Again, the video was about the basics. You have to tailor each trill to fit the style and circumstance. You can do that and make it sound very real. There's nothing magic about a trill. If you know the style, you can duplicate it all with MIDI. It may be easier to play it in, or it may not be. Sometimes it's just easier to create it. MIDI is not like playing a real instrument, so playing it does not always equal the best performance. Creating it from scratch often gives you the best control over it. They aren't mysterious. If you've played a zillion trills in your life, you know exactly how they go and how to construct them.

My video was intended to show some shortcuts that make it a 3 or 5 minute job instead of a 30 minute job.

I'm just saying all this so Mike doesn't have an unrealistic expectation as to the limits of imitating real instruments purely by MIDI-only means.

I don't mean to sound negative. I'm just being realistic (pun intended)

Mike's expectations can be as high as he realistically believes he can go. Again, it depends on your knowledge as a musician combined with your skill as a MIDI artist. It's not unrealistic at all to make a trill that is as good as any played in via MIDI.

I've used MIDI trills in actual audio recordings where the artist flubbed the trill. Nobody was the wiser. But what are we discussing?
—Are we asking "can MIDI sound real?"
—Or are we asking "can we construct a trill that sounds as good as one played in?"

The first question is a philosophical one with no real answers and no resolution.
The answer to the second question is a resounding "Yes!"

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Ah, Symphobia. Kontakt.

There we get into what happens when some sample sets are made to play rapidly, as in trills. It's very hard to get that to happen in a MIDI controlled sample set without getting extrenuous attack or release noises which make a "machine gun" sound. Some sample sets can get you around this, and some can't. I do not use Symphobia, because the things it does are generally not useful to me. Many Kontakt libraries have given me the same problems. Hopefully people are making better libraries and Kontakt is making it easier to get realistic performances. I don't use Kontakt much anymore, either.

If you're using a sample set that creates artifacts upon rapid repeats, then your expectations really can't be too high, as Fernando stated.

I've made it my business to find libraries that I can work with. It's a long, expensive road, and most libraries really do not work all that well. But with those that can do repetitive attacks without sounding repetitive, you can do great trills.

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

That's exactly what I suggested in my post. (you're skimming me again, bro! ) That wasn't included in the video, because the vid was only about making the trill.

I meant to say "good VIDEO " (not post)

Not that it wasn't also good, but I admit I did skim through your post

Sorry about that, Shoosh.
It's just that the video was crystal clear, and I thought I got your main point just by looking at it (which turned out I didn't).

To my defense, I was listening to this, and who can concentrate on anything else when that goes into your ears?




As for the rest of your post, I don't doubt you could make it work beautifully. You've been doing this for much longer than I have.

HOWEVER, I think we must be clearer on exactly what we mean (as in it applies to...)

I suppose I shouldn't have painted my comments with such a broad stroke. I should've been more specific and added that my comments come from my experience using hardware MIDI synths, like my JV-2080 and Kurzweil K2000R.
ALL MY COMMENTS WERE MEANT AND TARGETED AT THAT (in particular any kind of similar hardware synth).

I just assumed that was the kind of scenario Mike was talking about (he hadn't specified it at that point).

I made the mistake of assuming once, and I won't make it again, so let me ask you something (that I'm pretty sure about):

Just as my comments were directed at hardware synths similar to the ones I mentioned, you were talking about something like Wallander (I'm not sure about the name, but you've talked about them many times and how you use your wind controller, etc.). So that's what you meant, those kind of instrument libraries or something similar to that, along with those wind controllers, correct?

As I understand, those instruments use other technology (virtual modeling), yes?

So, IOW, you WOULD NOT have written what you did if it was a Roland JV-2080 (or similar hardware synth) we were specifically talking about, would you? .
If you did mean that, Shoosh, then my jaw would drop; I would give my VSL package away (most likely to you), and would go back to the simplicity of a hardware synth!

I'd be almost equally as impressed if you could do that manually (realistic trills) with the library Mike mentioned (iff it is made out of samples, like VSL).

Please let me know, my friend!!

As for the key click noises, I can hear them in most chamber music, and certainly in all solo pieces. Those can only be "hidden" to a degree by the performer. And I think they're an essential part of the sound, just like moderate fret noises are part of the acoustic guitar sound.
It's easy to want to exaggerate them in the virtual studio (if the patch allows it), but I try to use them in a natural way (imitating real performances).
I'd go as far as saying that not having them, especially in solo or chamber contexts (e.g., trills, tremolos, scale gestures), is a dead give away that one is hearing synthy hardware sounds and not samples or a real performance.

[Edited last sentence for clarity]