CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

[Shooshie]

Ah, TDH, so glad you're back again, keeping us itty-bitty-minor-league-naive-and-insignificant professionals in touch with the big important pro's.

If not for you, I wouldn't know that DP crashes when you use it! Who'd have guessed? I just ignorantly sit here using it day-in and day-out, sometimes working 36 hours pretty much non-stop, and I would NEVER have known that in reality it's been about to crash the whole time if you hadn't kept me so informed. Not to mention that it's the worst of all DAWs. That's valuable information to know in case I ever shoot-the-bull about DAWs in the coffee bar at a major Pro-Tools studio again. Thanks so much for keeping us up to date!



Shoosh

[toodamnhip]

Ah, TDH, so glad you're back again, keeping us itty-bitty-minor-league-naive-and-insignificant professionals in touch with the big important pro's.

If not for you, I wouldn't know that DP crashes when you use it! Who'd have guessed? I just ignorantly sit here using it day-in and day-out, sometimes working 36 hours pretty much non-stop, and I would NEVER have known that in reality it's been about to crash the whole time if you hadn't kept me so informed. Not to mention that it's the worst of all DAWs. That's valuable information to know in case I ever shoot-the-bull about DAWs in the coffee bar at a major Pro-Tools studio again. Thanks so much for keeping us up to date!



Shoosh

Always taking every negative opinion about DP expressed personally are we?
And then adding all kinds of mumbo jumbo about “amateurs", "worst of all DAWS"...
I have also said that I love DP and to me, it is the best. Where’s your memory on that? It all fades when I say anything negative does it?
i am surprised you don;t keep a spreadsheet with my negative quotes on hand for every new post I make..lol

Really man?

And you seem to also hate that I say something negative more than one time. I respond to individual posts. I am not writing any opinion over and over to be redundant or attack DP. You read these comments many times..ok, fine. But they are to specific posts, not written to be redundant and not always negative. But boy, when they are negative, boy are you personally attacked...yikes!
To me, you are interjecting into specific conversations with YOUR past upsets with me, and spewing them all over every new specific conversation I am having..adding in your past emotional hurt, hyperbole and generality, etc...I think a spreadsheet on my past comments would really add to that..lol

I think you should stop bro. I have nothing against you, but your last comment, to me, was over blown and inappropriate. I am expressing a specific opinion to a specific post. You can disagree, that’s cool. Add in your own experience as different from mine if you like. You can even add in that you have the opinion that TDHs system is more crash prone than the average system.
But the hyperbole needs to go......

[Shooshie]

Ah, TDH, so glad you're back again, keeping us itty-bitty-minor-league-naive-and-insignificant professionals in touch with the big important pro's.

If not for you, I wouldn't know that DP crashes when you use it! Who'd have guessed? I just ignorantly sit here using it day-in and day-out, sometimes working 36 hours pretty much non-stop, and I would NEVER have known that in reality it's been about to crash the whole time if you hadn't kept me so informed. Not to mention that it's the worst of all DAWs. That's valuable information to know in case I ever shoot-the-bull about DAWs in the coffee bar at a major Pro-Tools studio again. Thanks so much for keeping us up to date!



Shoosh

Always taking every negative opinion about DP expressed personally are we?
And then adding all kinds of mumbo jumbo about “amateurs", "worst of all DAWS"...
I have also said that I love DP and to me, it is the best. Where’s your memory on that? It all fades when I say anything negative does it?
i am surprised you don;t keep a spreadsheet with my negative quotes on hand for every new post I make..lol

Really man?

And you seem to also hate that I say something negative more than one time. I respond to individual posts. I am not writing any opinion over and over to be redundant or attack DP. You read these comments many times..ok, fine. But they are to specific posts, not written to be redundant and not always negative. But boy, when they are negative, boy are you personally attacked...yikes!
To me, you are interjecting into specific conversations with YOUR past upsets with me, and spewing them all over every new specific conversation I am having..adding in your past emotional hurt, hyperbole and generality, etc...I think a spreadsheet on my past comments would really add to that..lol

I think you should stop bro. I have nothing against you, but your last comment, to me, was over blown and inappropriate. I am expressing a specific opinion to a specific post. You can disagree, that’s cool. Add in your own experience as different from mine if you like. You can even add in that you have the opinion that TDHs system is more crash prone than the average system.
But the hyperbole needs to go......

I agree with you on all counts. But I'm staying, and most likely the hyperbole, too.

Yeah, I get sick of the way you denigrate DP and those who use it. You don't see what you do. Sure, I get it that I'm responding to a COLLECTIVE body of comments you've made over the years, and the way you used to always add my name personally to your comments, even when I wasn't in the conversation, such as "I'm sure Shooshie will defend his beloved DP..." That sort of thing happened enough that I got pretty sick of it, TDH. No, it didn't happen here, but it's hard not to remember those things when reading anything you write now.

So, yes, I probably go over the top now and then. When I've been working in DP all day, tired, but pumped on what a great session it's been, it's a bit of a killjoy to come around and read some of your posts. Not saying your posts in this thread were out of line — just that they all exist in context of some of your endless arguments.

I'm not asking you to forgive me. I was mad and fully aware of what I said. Guilty as charged on all counts. I'm just saying that you deserve it!



Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

You know man, your mind is just jaded.
I have soooooooo often said nice things about you, even recommending people to look at your posts.
I don;t recall ever interjecting your name in a crappy way "out of nowhere". CAN I SAY I HAVE NEVER elluded to a bias on your part in a post? No, I cannot. But I can say that MY memory is not filled with pain so much that it jades me. My memory is that yes, we have had out disagreements, but I recall talking positively about your contributions here. And I will say it again, you do more for this place than I do and have put a tremendous amount of wonderful effort into this forum..you deserve kudos for this.
And the reason I know dont randomly throw you under any bus is that I know my opinion of your contributions here, and that is, a VERY positive one. So, knowing what is in MY OWN head, I see no reason to ever just throw you under a bus.
However, where I will throw and all others under a bus, is this crazy, discriminatory attitude you and a FEW others have about my posts. There probably is no member here that gets attacked as easily as I do. But I will not stop calling em as I see em, I am sorry.

Look man, when DP can be a sturdy on VIs alone, and does NOT need VE Pro to be crashless---, I will say so.
I have said also many positive things about DP.
I have defended myself enough here. Anyone can think of me as a total ass if they like.
I think of you as jaded when I say anything at all, and I also think of you s a wonderful member here. I'm out

[Gravity Jim]

DP is perfectly sturdy on its own and does not require VEPro to be crashless. Really.

You, TDH, from your continous "hey, I'm just keeping it real" wenging about DP to your "I'm actually a big time producer" BS hinting (I know that people don't know what they don't know, but do you actually expect the readers of this forum to believe that someone who writes with your language and viewpoint works for "major labels?") are a troll. You are the most skillful troll I've ever seen - either that or this particular group of forumites are simply too kind to call you on it - because a troll rarely gets themselves this well embedded. But a troll you were when you arrived and troll you remain.

So just accept that there's something else wrong with your computer and software system and move the hell on, please.

Oh, that's right, you won't see this. I got your hissy fit e-mail informing me that I was on your ignore list. Imagine my shock... I certainly didn't feel the need to inform you when I blocked you months earlier. But damn it, people kept on quoting you. Anyway, the real surprise is that you're still here.

[James Steele]

Man... I don't want to have to wade into this. We'll probably need to just cut this off here. And TDH, you know that sometimes you get under my skin, too. I admit it. That's because I think, to be honest, you have criticized DP without taking into account that they way you work isn't necessarily representative of the way most other users work-- for example the extent to which you use plug-in automation, etc. You demand that DP work flawlessly under the unusual load you put on it, so it's no wonder you have to use VEP. It's my opinion that your working methods aren't shared by most users, so I recommend that before new visitors to this board take what you say to heart and ASSUME it applies to them, they try it out first.

Frank's suggestion that users might up their installed RAM and run VIs within DP in 64-bit mode isn't necessarily the non-starter for many that it is to you. Not everybody places the same demands on the system. Your experience isn't necessarily going to be the experience of others. I understand we can only relate these things to our OWN needs, but we all don't do things the same way and have the same requirements for DP or for control surfaces, etc. There are different, valid ways of working and so sometimes I think Shooshie and I have felt obliged to step in as a counterbalance when you proffer an opinion, often presented as an absolute, that we feel may not be valid advice for EVERYONE. I saw in your post that you acknowledged that AFTER someone jumped in and mentioned it. When you state something with such certainty and forcefulness that it seems to leave out the possibility that there is another valid way of doing it, people will feel obligated to jump in to assist the person asking the question with an alternative. Especially if they know that alternative works for them.

[toodamnhip]

Man... I don't want to have to wade into this. We'll probably need to just cut this off here. And TDH, you know that sometimes you get under my skin, too. I admit it. That's because I think, to be honest, you have criticized DP without taking into account that they way you work isn't necessarily representative of the way most other users work-- for example the extent to which you use plug-in automation, etc. You demand that DP work flawlessly under the unusual load you put on it, so it's no wonder you have to use VEP. It's my opinion that your working methods aren't shared by most users, so I recommend that before new visitors to this board take what you say to heart and ASSUME it applies to them, they try it out first.

Frank's suggestion that users might up their installed RAM and run VIs within DP in 64-bit mode isn't necessarily the non-starter for many that it is to you. Not everybody places the same demands on the system. Your experience isn't necessarily going to be the experience of others. I understand we can only relate these things to our OWN needs, but we all don't do things the same way and have the same requirements for DP or for control surfaces, etc. There are different, valid ways of working and so sometimes I think Shooshie and I have felt obliged to step in as a counterbalance when you proffer an opinion, often presented as an absolute, that we feel may not be valid advice for EVERYONE. I saw in your post that you acknowledged that AFTER someone jumped in and mentioned it. When you state something with such certainty and forcefulness that it seems to leave out the possibility that there is another valid way of doing it, people will feel obligated to jump in to assist the person asking the question with an alternative. Especially if they know that alternative works for them.

Fair enough. I will make a deal with you. I will try to include a short pre amble stating my system loads are huge. I didn’t really want to get you involved in this thread ya know. But I thought it might happen.
I don;t think my load is all that crazy compared to some HUGE loads orchestral guys have that use 5-6 or more instances of VE Pro. I usually only use 1, and, it has maybe 7-8 VIs on it. That isn;t so crazy.
But if it seems fairer to MOTU and all involved to say my working methods tend to be rather robust, I will try to find opportunities to mention that.
By the way, after using DP for what? 20 yrs? It is hard to not be certain of my conclusions, even though every individuals’ system has it;s quirks. Various DP short comings have been there through many computer systems I have owned and are not something new. And, again, there are many NEW improvements in DP 8, which is obviously the best DP system ever.

It’s funny, I record every Wed with my jazz group and they are always having so many problems with Pro Tools...and I am always ribbing them to get DP.
Just because I have SOME complaints doesn’t mean I don;t have the love man. People tend to come here with PROBLEMS. So I comment on PROBLEMS. So it may seem negative just because of the context.

I say do say GOOD things too....jee wiz....sniffle sniffle, I want my mommy.

[James Steele]

It's not so much VIs and I might be mistaken here, but I seem to recall you mentioning that you include a LOT of automation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you said something about taking snapshots of plug ins and inserting automation for most, if not all, plug-in parameters in most or all tracks? If I'm off-base, tell me.

I know that it may be a habit left over from the days when computers were not as powerful, but I tend to go out of my way to be more surgical as to automation, and if I must include automation, selectively insert automation for only the parameter or parameters that are going to be changed with automation. Granted, it may be slower. It just seems that it will tax my computer less if I'm not having the Mac do unnecessary or redundant work.

[toodamnhip]

It's not so much VIs and I might be mistaken here, but I seem to recall you mentioning that you include a LOT of automation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you said something about taking snapshots of plug ins and inserting automation for most, if not all, plug-in parameters in most or all tracks? If I'm off-base, tell me.

I know that it may be a habit left over from the days when computers were not as powerful, but I tend to go out of my way to be more surgical as to automation, and if I must include automation, selectively insert automation for only the parameter or parameters that are going to be changed with automation. Granted, it may be slower. It just seems that it will tax my computer less if I'm not having the Mac do unnecessary or redundant work.

Well, by the time I am at the point of snap shotting everything, I have usually bounced all VI audio to audio and shut off the VIs. So VI instability comes, for me, BEFORE that. Though there might be SOME automation while Vis are present, there’s not as much as when they have been bounced.

The reason I automate everything is due to my professional work loads with recall mixes need months later, and the possibility to need to go back and forth with small adjustments. Also, it has become a significantly better way to mix for me because, as I have stated before, having thing s ”locked” allows me to thereafter “TUG” on a mix. Trying to make ever finer mix adjustments with the option to go back. We’re talking .2 db refinements. SOmetime I go to trim latch, or touch without recording, tugging on EQs, compressors, levels. If they weren;t locked, I’d be sunk.
I forget who the mixer was, but there is a huge quote from years ago that goes: when you can clearly hear .5 db adjustments, you know your mix is close or done.
Well, when you can clearly hear .2 db adjustments, with everything locked in and the ability to go back if newer adjustments aren;t better, you then have a seriously refined and controlled mix. Everyone uses their paint brushes differently. This is how I use mine. When I tug and tug on a mix and cannot make it better, I am happy. It takes locked in automation throughout a mix for me to confidently even attempt such a thing.
By the way, this has improved DP’s compatibility with several major plug in makers I have beta tested for. Because my requirements have truly pushed their products, especially when it comes to snap shotting, which seems to be fairly unique to DP, at least the way DP implements it with all the variety of options. So I like to think that being the "automation nut" I have been has helped us all. Because when I 1st started beta testing, there were times I felt like an alien explaining a different “DP language” to companies.

[supersonic]

I have recently scored a movie with VIs running in virtual tracks in DP. For tests sake I transferred those to VEP. I found that set-up to more stable. Plus the samples stay in memory when DP does crash and I don't need to reload them.

[toodamnhip]

I have recently scored a movie with VIs running in virtual tracks in DP. For tests sake I transferred those to VEP. I found that set-up to more stable. Plus the samples stay in memory when DP does crash and I don't need to reload them.

This is VERY true. Except you need to know how to “force disconnect” VE Pro when DP crashes.
I have never had VE PRo crash, or, if it has, maybe ONCE in 2 yrs. That’s a crazy statistic man! Of course, it is not a fair comparison to compare it to DP as it only has to do oNE thing. But VE is sure BETTER at the “one thing” of VI handling in my opinion

[Shooshie]

I appreciate James's ability to be neutral and stick to the facts as much as possible, so I'm going to try to do my part to call a truce here.

I have one request, TDH, and if you can grant me that, I'll not pin you up by the ears and jeer anymore. Remember that you're talking to a group of colleagues. Some of us have used DP and other MOTU products for 30 years now, in the finest concert halls in the USA, and the finest recording studios, too. I've been a pro at this since I started. (yeah, I learned on the job) Though I started with Professional Composer (MOTU's first scoring software) in 1984, I've been using DP (or Performer) for about 28 of those years. There are others with the same experience.

I could list my credentials, and they are substantial, but you know what? I learn things here from guys or girls who only started a few years ago. Some of the people who do this just for fun know a heck of a lot about it.

So, my request for you is rather than think others are wrong, inexperienced, or don't understand your level of employment of DP, instead, think why they may be right.

When I first came here, I knew a lot, and I answered a lot of questions, but I didn't pay that much attention to others. After all, I was making tons of money with DP, and I'd been in all kinds of situations that even amazed myself when I got through them. But when I began thinking why everyone else may be right, too, I started learning stuff.

For your information, that's when I began doing the DP Tips Sheet. I realized that I'd get the collective knowledge of a lot of people if I gave everyone an outlet, a place to get some recognition for what they know. The Tips Sheet did just that. I wish I had the time and energy to update it with all the knowledge of every member here, somehow organized into a database, but for what we are able to do, I think the Tips Sheet thread works pretty well. The point is that when we really consider that others know what they're talking about, we learn things.

Sure, there are lots of common myths, and sometimes they run rampant through even groups like this. Occasionally those things have to be set straight. But when you've got someone's attention and they are trying to help, give their knowledge some respect.

I think I can speak for all of us when saying I know DP isn't perfect, but I've used a LOT of software. DP ranks absolutely #1 on my list of reliability over the 28 years I've used it. I respect MOTU for that. If you think you know how to make DP better, you need to be in a dialog with MOTU. During the mid-1990s, I was in contact with Jim Cooper, Les Quindepan, and/or others at least once a month over changing the way something worked, or adding a feature. Many things you use now came from suggestions by people like me. If you want to make DP better for tomorrow's users, figure out the best way to explain your ideas, then send them to MOTU. I can't guarantee they'll do it, but sometimes they do. I've seen some of mine in the past few versions, but I can't say "mine" since there were probably many people asking for the same things. Still, that's how you do it. You talk to them and respect their integrity.

Just as you must respect our integrity, here at the forum. Do that, and I think we can manage a truce. Outside of that one, very annoying thing, of either disregarding what others say or believing everyone else to be wrong, you're basically a very likable guy. I want to be on your side, but that works two ways; I want you to be on our side, too. Just show some respect, and I think you'll find people warming right up to you.

Shoosh

[toodamnhip]

I hear you man, but I don;t know why every time I express a certain opinion you and others take it as me thinking others are wrong.

I am just certain of what I say and say it. The rest seems to be added by people over reacting. I am sure I have occasionally disagreed with someone...who doesn’t? I have seen you have your fair share of rumbles in this debate jungle too you know?
Just everyone stop reading so much into an opinion thats given with certainty..that’s MY request.
I say DP is too crash y with a heavy VI load. I am not saying “shooshie is dumb, inexperienced, amateur, not a colleague...all others are wrong...”nothing like that.
Just a clearly given opinion. Sometimes I feel like the devil around here for being just plain certain of what I say. I am TOTALLY cool with you thinking something else. And when i see an opinion from you I disagree with, I sure don;t think you’re claiming I am not a colleague or an amateur or anything personal.
You didn’t have to tell me your experience because. 1) I already knew all that. 2) I didn;t question it. You’re great man. Disagree with me if you like ..but when you do, don;t think I am attacking you or any shade of meaning like that. It’s just an opinion given with certainty.
i always read things here and try to learn. And when someone os certain DP is the absolute perfect best at everything, fine. Think that. Or don;t think that. But if someone says DP handles VIs the best, I sure don;t think they are talking to me and take it personal.
I am glad you love DP so much that you fight is you feel it is being attacked..I just wish you and others didn;t feel every criticism is an attack.

[Shooshie]

I am just certain of what I say and say it...

Just everyone stop reading so much into an opinion thats given with certainty...

Sometimes I feel like the devil around here for being just plain certain of what I say...

It’s just an opinion given with certainty...

Now, consider that in light of the previous statements, the following one may sound a little disingenuous:

I always read things here and try to learn.

Ok, maybe you can see how those ideas are not quite compatible.

Now for this:

I just wish you and others didn't feel every criticism is an attack.

You see, it's not that we feel attacked. In fact, I could care less if you attacked me. One of the problems here is that you're thinking that we feel attacked when you're not attacking us. We're pretty thick-skinned, dude. Attack away. You have never hurt my feelings; not one little bit! That's NOT THE POINT!

No, the problem is the gap between that first bunch of quotes and the meager, disingenuous 2nd quote. There's nothing wrong with believing in yourself, but "opinions" are not stated with certainty. Facts are. A fact isn't a fact until it's been verified by two or more researchers using similar methods to see if they yield the same results. THAT'S where the problem is, TDH. You speak with certainty; you don't care what we say or think. You just more or less said "I'm right. Whatever you want to think is ok, I won't judge you for it or care what you think, but I'm right." That's a premeditated judgment if I ever heard one. And you know what? Most of the time you probably are right, for your system, your situation, your deadlines, your workflow, your plugins, your hardware, and the number of bathroom breaks in your bathroom. But there are variables. You don't want to hear about those, because you're right. When someone points out an error in your thinking, your response is "oh, poor thing, he feels attacked. How can I explain to him that I'm not attacking him? I'm just right."

THAT'S what I'm talking about, man. It's NOT an attack. It's just useless talking to you. There's no point in it. You'll notice how little I participate in your threads anymore. It's because there simply isn't any point in it. Your right, and you're certain of that. So why bother? So what if I've learned things that you haven't? It doesn't matter, because you're already right, and you are certain of it. You're just here to unload on us. There's nothing to say in reply except "DP doesn't do that on my system." But then you just think "he doesn't know... I'm CERTAIN of it."

Are you getting it?

It turns out that your conditions and my conditions aren't compatible, because the only thing I asked of you is to consider "why other people may be right." You know what I found out when I started considering that? I found out that sometimes I'm wrong.

Ok, I think I've said about all I can say. I'm done.

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

I am just certain of what I say and say it...

Just everyone stop reading so much into an opinion thats given with certainty...

Sometimes I feel like the devil around here for being just plain certain of what I say...

It’s just an opinion given with certainty...

Now, consider that in light of the previous statements, the following one may sound a little disingenuous:

I always read things here and try to learn.

Ok, maybe you can see how those ideas are not quite compatible.

Now for this:

I just wish you and others didn't feel every criticism is an attack.

You see, it's not that we feel attacked. In fact, I could care less if you attacked me. One of the problems here is that you're thinking that we feel attacked when you're not attacking us. We're pretty thick-skinned, dude. Attack away. You have never hurt my feelings; not one little bit! That's NOT THE POINT!

No, the problem is the gap between that first bunch of quotes and the meager, disingenuous 2nd quote. There's nothing wrong with believing in yourself, but "opinions" are not stated with certainty. Facts are. A fact isn't a fact until it's been verified by two or more researchers using similar methods to see if they yield the same results. THAT'S where the problem is, TDH. You speak with certainty; you don't care what we say or think. You just more or less said "I'm right. Whatever you want to think is ok, I won't judge you for it or care what you think, but I'm right." That's a premeditated judgment if I ever heard one. And you know what? Most of the time you probably are right, for your system, your situation, your deadlines, your workflow, your plugins, your hardware, and the number of bathroom breaks in your bathroom. But there are variables. You don't want to hear about those, because you're right. When someone points out an error in your thinking, your response is "oh, poor thing, he feels attacked. How can I explain to him that I'm not attacking him? I'm just right."

THAT'S what I'm talking about, man. It's NOT an attack. It's just useless talking to you. There's no point in it. You'll notice how little I participate in your threads anymore. It's because there simply isn't any point in it. Your right, and you're certain of that. So why bother? So what if I've learned things that you haven't? It doesn't matter, because you're already right, and you are certain of it. You're just here to unload on us. There's nothing to say in reply except "DP doesn't do that on my system." But then you just think "he doesn't know... I'm CERTAIN of it."

Are you getting it?

It turns out that your conditions and my conditions aren't compatible, because the only thing I asked of you is to consider "why other people may be right." You know what I found out when I started considering that? I found out that sometimes I'm wrong.

Ok, I think I've said about all I can say. I'm done.

Shooshie

I don’t agree with your conclusions at all. But you are welcome to them of course.
Just because I finally learn something enough to have a certain opinion, (in this case Ve Pros superiority to DP in VI handling), doesn’t mean I stop learning in all areas. You make it sound like I can NEVER learn anything if I am certain of any of my points, utterly ridiculous. Am I supposed to undo my years of certainty, as tested on many systems and verified by many OTHER users that VE Pro smokes DP when it comes to VI stability? According to you, I can NEVER be certain of this. And, according to you, if someone came out with a finding of HOW to use DP that showed it was as stable as VE Pro, I wouldn’t learn from it. Well, I will tell you man, I look forward to such a post, and if such a post comes out and shows how to use DP as effectively as VE Pro, I will be happy to stop using VE Pro. Why do you think people resorted to VE Pro anyway? Just to make their systems MORE complicated?..lol

By the way, some one else came in between the rancor and verified my findings.
I see little difference in the posts except I get crap for mine.

Sorry man, but I am certain of what I am certain of, and ALWAYS willing to learn new info...BOTH at the same time..what do ya know about that?...
Let’s end this, it is going nowhere. Poof...