CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Discussion of Digital Performer use, optimization, tips and techniques on MacOS.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for most discussion related to the use and optimization of Digital Performer [MacOS] and plug-ins as well as tips and techniques. It is NOT for troubleshooting technical issues, complaints, feature requests, or "Comparative DAW 101."
User avatar
ziobello
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:29 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles, CA

CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by ziobello »

Hey there,
I'm building my template and I was wondering if you could suggest me what you think is better: would it be more CPU efficient to have multiple VEP instances (strings, brass, woodwinds) or just one instance and multiply the MIDI inputs with VEP Event Input?
Thanks!
Ziobello
labman
Posts: 1940
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by labman »

Has the event input drop outs etc been fixed with DP? We havent tested it out on our large orch template simply cause it took us a full day or two to rebuild our slaves templates when event inputs were making us crazy. BUt... that was maybe 8-9 months, so perhaps it is better now????
AMPGUI themes - Andy rocks!, 3 macs, MacPro 768GB ram, 16core OS11.7.10, DP11.31, all Waves, all SLATE, PSP, IK multimedia & Audioease plugs, all PAlliance, Softube, tons of NI VI's all air Spitfire, all Audiobro, all Berlin, EW PLAY, LLizard, MachFive3, Kontakt5, Omnisphere, RMX, LASS, all Soundtoys, Lexicon AU's, melodyne and others I know am forgetting, cause I'm old...Also mucho outboard rigs, MTPs, DTP, antelope WC, and 4 control surfaces with Raven.
Marc7777
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:34 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by Marc7777 »

Welcome to the crazy world of DP and VE Pro Event Inputs...

You'll find many a threads about this issue on this forum and VSL's forum..

You will also find that 1) It varies greatly per individual and 2) there are pro's and con's to each way, and it'll be up to you to see which is better for your personal workflow.

Don't have a lot of time, so i'll quickly give you the rundown.

From DP programmers own mouths, they say that having few instances of VEP and more Event Inputs is a better way to go about your template from a CPU standpoint.

Now the "Con" to that is that you can't do Offline bouncing. Only the first Instance of VEP will actually do the offline bouncing. So if you NEED offline bouncing, you should NOT use Event Inputs.

The other "Con" of this way is that you MAY fall into the dreaded, impossible to figure out, horribleness that is the "Dropped MIDI Note" conundrum.. This seems to affect certain people and it's different for everyone. (not sure why..) So maybe you'll get lucky.

For me, personally, if I set the buffer for the VEPro instance to NONE, then it solves my drop note problem. Others say that has no effect...

Now, you'll say to yourself, then I should just load a bunch of Instances... well for one, make sure that you set the number of audio outputs to something small. I think the default is something really high like 128 channels. Make sure that it is set low, because if you look in the bundles window, under Instruments, you'll see a massive list for each VEPro instance.. The other bad side to having many instances is that it adds major CPU load to the computer that is running VEP. And I think it would be pretty intense if you had a huge orchestral template.. you'd have at least 30 instances.

Good luck!! The Event Input thing is sadly a workaround for the AU MIDI limitation. and with all workarounds, none are perfect. and sadly, both companies are blaming each other for these problems.. If DP can get VST3 to work, it would be a much, much happier story.

All the best,

M
DP 8.04 64bit, VEP 5 (Latest), 1 Dual Quad 2.26 Mac Pro 2009 w/ 10.8 as DP DAW. 1 Dual Quad 2.26 Mac Pro 2009 w/ 10.6 as VEP Sample Machine. PCIe 424 - 4 2408's. Console - Yamaha 02R 96v2. AD/DA - Apogee Symphony IO. Waves, Sonnox, MOTU Plugins.
labman
Posts: 1940
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by labman »

Marc7777 wrote: For me, personally, if I set the buffer for the VEPro instance to NONE, then it solves my drop note problem. Others say that has no effect...

M
appreciate all your great input Marc. Doesn't setting VEP buffer to none cause DP CPU hit to go way up?

We have 11or 12 instantiations of VEP to hold out 80-90 orch trks in template. Could get it down to 3-4 if we could just use event inputs w/o dropouts.
AMPGUI themes - Andy rocks!, 3 macs, MacPro 768GB ram, 16core OS11.7.10, DP11.31, all Waves, all SLATE, PSP, IK multimedia & Audioease plugs, all PAlliance, Softube, tons of NI VI's all air Spitfire, all Audiobro, all Berlin, EW PLAY, LLizard, MachFive3, Kontakt5, Omnisphere, RMX, LASS, all Soundtoys, Lexicon AU's, melodyne and others I know am forgetting, cause I'm old...Also mucho outboard rigs, MTPs, DTP, antelope WC, and 4 control surfaces with Raven.
Marc7777
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:34 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by Marc7777 »

labman wrote: Doesn't setting VEP buffer to none cause DP CPU hit to go way up?
Yes...yes it does. But i'd rather push the CPU then have the dropped notes..

For my template I have 4 Instances of VEP, and 10-12 Event Inputs for each instance of VEP. I was able to find a balance between instances and Event Inputs on my system. I also like to have as many MIDI tracks have their own audio tracks as much as possible. That way if I want to add tremolo or something to an instrument, I won't have 20 other instruments going through that same audio return..

The only downside I have is that every 3-4 hours or so, DP just starts freaking out. the CPU meter spikes very randomly and audio spikes happen. I just have to quit DP and restart it.. It's annoying, but for the time being it's worth it not having to deal with MIDI dropouts..

~M
DP 8.04 64bit, VEP 5 (Latest), 1 Dual Quad 2.26 Mac Pro 2009 w/ 10.8 as DP DAW. 1 Dual Quad 2.26 Mac Pro 2009 w/ 10.6 as VEP Sample Machine. PCIe 424 - 4 2408's. Console - Yamaha 02R 96v2. AD/DA - Apogee Symphony IO. Waves, Sonnox, MOTU Plugins.
labman
Posts: 1940
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by labman »

Marc are you sending VEP out other mac slaves or just to the host VEP as server?
AMPGUI themes - Andy rocks!, 3 macs, MacPro 768GB ram, 16core OS11.7.10, DP11.31, all Waves, all SLATE, PSP, IK multimedia & Audioease plugs, all PAlliance, Softube, tons of NI VI's all air Spitfire, all Audiobro, all Berlin, EW PLAY, LLizard, MachFive3, Kontakt5, Omnisphere, RMX, LASS, all Soundtoys, Lexicon AU's, melodyne and others I know am forgetting, cause I'm old...Also mucho outboard rigs, MTPs, DTP, antelope WC, and 4 control surfaces with Raven.
Marc7777
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:34 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by Marc7777 »

I have a Mac Pro 2.26 dual quad as a sample machine. And a DAW Mac Pro running just DP.

A friend of mine has 2 Sample machines and a DAW mac pro and he gets really good performance from VEP and DP.. one day i'll get another Mac Pro..
DP 8.04 64bit, VEP 5 (Latest), 1 Dual Quad 2.26 Mac Pro 2009 w/ 10.8 as DP DAW. 1 Dual Quad 2.26 Mac Pro 2009 w/ 10.6 as VEP Sample Machine. PCIe 424 - 4 2408's. Console - Yamaha 02R 96v2. AD/DA - Apogee Symphony IO. Waves, Sonnox, MOTU Plugins.
User avatar
ziobello
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:29 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by ziobello »

Hi Marc, I'm so sorry for the late reply, for some reason I didn't get any notification about the replies. Thank so much for all the suggestions, they're really, really helpful!! :D
User avatar
doodles
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Scotland / LA
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by doodles »

Just briefly chiming in.

one factor to bear in mind is if you'll be printing all your MIDI individually for mixing elsewhere (e.g. soundtracks). If so, you're best going with as many VE Pro instances as possible, rather than Event Input, as you want to be able to freeze as many instances as possible at once to save you time on your gazillion q's. Template here is about 250 MIDI tracks and about 30 VE Pros. (connected to various slaves). Tt does bog DP down CPU wise, but is mostly fine. Until you start adding loads of other soft synths... :lol:
2*5-core 3.46 Intel xeon (32 gigs RAM), 2*dual 2.5 (16 & 32 gigs RAM), DP 8.07, WAVES 9, Lexicon plugs, SoundToys, all Spectrasonics, NI Komplete 9, Vienna Ensemble (extended), LASS, Evolve, Symphobia, etc, Cinesamples, Arturia, cinestrings, all Project Sam
User avatar
toodamnhip
Posts: 3839
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by toodamnhip »

Marc7777 wrote:
labman wrote: Doesn't setting VEP buffer to none cause DP CPU hit to go way up?
Yes...yes it does. But i'd rather push the CPU then have the dropped notes..

For my template I have 4 Instances of VEP, and 10-12 Event Inputs for each instance of VEP. I was able to find a balance between instances and Event Inputs on my system. I also like to have as many MIDI tracks have their own audio tracks as much as possible. That way if I want to add tremolo or something to an instrument, I won't have 20 other instruments going through that same audio return..

The only downside I have is that every 3-4 hours or so, DP just starts freaking out. the CPU meter spikes very randomly and audio spikes happen. I just have to quit DP and restart it.. It's annoying, but for the time being it's worth it not having to deal with MIDI dropouts..

~M
This reminds me of DP losing cpu memory to Vis that have been shut off. It has always been my view that DP's memory get's "stuck from time to time and in certain circumstances, requiring re start to regain said memory.
Mac Pro (Late 2013
2.7 GHz 12-Core Intel Xeon E5
64 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
Mojave
DP 10.13
MOTU 8pre, MTP AV, 828 mkII
Tons of VIS and plug ins. SSD hard drives etc
User avatar
doodles
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Scotland / LA
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by doodles »

This reminds me of DP losing cpu memory to Vis that have been shut off. It has always been my view that DP's memory get's "stuck from time to time and in certain circumstances, requiring re start to regain said memory.
Absolutely true, from what i can tell. One example is if you have "unused" VI's in other chunks in DP. Even though they're not loaded, they still use up some CPU, which is why chunks became unusable for me and I end up with a different file for each q. I know a lot of people have great mileage out of chunks, though - again, it depends how you work!
2*5-core 3.46 Intel xeon (32 gigs RAM), 2*dual 2.5 (16 & 32 gigs RAM), DP 8.07, WAVES 9, Lexicon plugs, SoundToys, all Spectrasonics, NI Komplete 9, Vienna Ensemble (extended), LASS, Evolve, Symphobia, etc, Cinesamples, Arturia, cinestrings, all Project Sam
frankf
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by frankf »

I dropped VEP when DP went 64 bit. If you have a Mac Pro multi core with a good amount of memory you should try it unless you need to bridge to 32 bit plug-ins. Also if you use multiple Chunks accessing the same VIs you should be using v-racks for better performance.
Frank Ferrucci
http://www.ferruccimusic.com
Mac Pro 6,1 64gb RAM DP9.52 OSX 10.12.6 MIO 2882d & ULN2d Firewire Audio Interfaces, MOTU MTP-AV USB
User avatar
toodamnhip
Posts: 3839
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by toodamnhip »

frankf wrote:I dropped VEP when DP went 64 bit. If you have a Mac Pro multi core with a good amount of memory you should try it unless you need to bridge to 32 bit plug-ins. Also if you use multiple Chunks accessing the same VIs you should be using v-racks for better performance.
I must respectfully completely disagree with you , at least from my viewpoint. Ve Pro is not only about memory efficiency. Dp just plain crashes when taxed and running VIs. I have always thought of it as completely weak when it comes to stabilty when taxed with VIs loads. VE Pro is 1000% more solid. Never crashes.
And even if you don;t agree with my finding, think of it this way. When you let VE Pro handle the VIs, you let DP focus on audio. Two programs, each focusing on a separate , major aspect of production.

If DP ever proves to me it can run VIs at 90%+ cpu without crashing, I would ditch VE Pro in a heart beat, because it is an extra hassle to keep track of and back up a 2nd program for each master. Let's see, I've been using DP for what ? 20+ yrs? I don;t even know. DP has improved in 64 bit, yes. But VE Pro smokes it as far as VI stability. VE Pro has been a godsend as far as stability for me.
Last edited by toodamnhip on Thu May 08, 2014 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mac Pro (Late 2013
2.7 GHz 12-Core Intel Xeon E5
64 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
Mojave
DP 10.13
MOTU 8pre, MTP AV, 828 mkII
Tons of VIS and plug ins. SSD hard drives etc
frankf
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by frankf »

I'm happy VEP is a good solution for you and others TDH. I suggested that he TRY the workflow that works here for the very reasons you mention in your last paragraph. Did you really mean you "completely disagree" with trying a solution that may work for him without any of the downsides of an external plugin host?
Peace,
Frank


Frank Ferrucci
Frank Ferrucci
http://www.ferruccimusic.com
Mac Pro 6,1 64gb RAM DP9.52 OSX 10.12.6 MIO 2882d & ULN2d Firewire Audio Interfaces, MOTU MTP-AV USB
User avatar
toodamnhip
Posts: 3839
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: CPU Optimization in DP: multiple VEP or VEP Event Input?

Post by toodamnhip »

frankf wrote:I'm happy VEP is a good solution for you and others TDH. I suggested that he TRY the workflow that works here for the very reasons you mention in your last paragraph. Did you really mean you "completely disagree" with trying a solution that may work for him without any of the downsides of an external plugin host?
Peace,
Frank


Frank Ferrucci
Not at all. He should try any workflow he can or wants to try. But now he has heard my experience so he will hopefully have more data at hand when deciding what to try, what results mean etc....It isnt that much a hassle to load VE Pro by the way. I would get rid of it not really because of "hassle", but because it is always better to have as few programs necessary to achieve DAW results. I load up VE Pro in like a few seconds...
Mac Pro (Late 2013
2.7 GHz 12-Core Intel Xeon E5
64 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
Mojave
DP 10.13
MOTU 8pre, MTP AV, 828 mkII
Tons of VIS and plug ins. SSD hard drives etc
Post Reply