Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

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Dan Worley
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Dan Worley »

FMiguelez wrote:But I'm not sure about something... I set the speed to quarter notes or half notes, and the rest of the parameters exactly like your picture. I'm using Waves' IR-1 convolution reverb, BTW.
The thing is that each steps sounds modulated. Like it goes from high to low to high, and I'm not sure why that happens. Almost like footsteps from someone walking towards and away from me. It sounds like that with every IR I've tried. Is this normal? (I'm using the full bandwidth pink noise from your link).
Oh, sorry, I wasn't careful enough with the settings before I took that screenshot. :banghead: Turn the Depth down to zero, that's where the modulation is coming from. Having said that, Pattern Gate has a mind of its own sometimes, especially when set to quarter notes. It will do things that it's not set to do.
FMiguelez wrote:Also, I'm not sure what the "Density" and "Diffusion"parameters are supposed to do (Waves' manual is quite poorly written). I mean, I obviously hear the changes as I tweak them, but in reality, what are they supposed to emulate (in real life)?
I understand Diffusion kind of "spreads" the frequencies all over the place, is this correct? Don't people spend big bucks diffusing their rooms? Or am I not getting this right?
Not sure how Waves defines or uses Density and Diffusion, but to me, Density is how thick or tightly packed the echos are, and Diffusion is at what rate that happens over time (to make it simple, I think of it as how quickly the echos become thick. The higher the number the faster it happens.) Many reverb units and plug-ins now allow for multiple diffusion stages, i.e., early reflection diffusion and decay diffusion, just as in real halls.

Generally, on percussive instruments, you want to use more of both density and diffusion, and on vocals or melodic instruments, you want to use less of both.
Last edited by Dan Worley on Thu May 10, 2012 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Armageddon »

My stance on reverb goes like this:

I know a lot of you actually use reverbs as track inserts, whereas some of you are from the same "old-school" mindset I am and set up sends/auxiliary tracks to a room and hall reverb. I think either way works, though, if you're using eighty different kinds of reverbs in one project, you tend to muddy up the "unified space" you might be trying to achieve in the first place.

Even though I usually use Lexicon PCM, I avoid tweaking my reverbs with EQ and instead try to find either a preset (or even a different reverb) that works for the "unified space" I'm trying to go for. After all, adjusting the EQ on a reverb sometimes has the same effect as adjusting the EQ on a track itself: you might inadvertently pick out a frequency that adds too much to a snare or a high hat and completely alter your mix. I usually go after the most neutral-sounding space I can find: one that flatters most of what you run through it without either adding unwanted space that washes out your actual mix or dulling/brightening things to a point where you're overly aware that the reverb's even present. Then, I go for the old sound engineer's adage: always use a little less than what sounds good.

I've tried, as a few people on here have suggested, to use the Pan function on my sends to match my track panning. The only problem with this is, a lot of reverb plugs seem to behave like old-school reverb units and sum to mono, even if it's a stereo-to-stereo auxiliary track and the plug should theoretically be the same. A simple way to check this out it to try panning your sends with just that track soloed; if you can't really hear any change (or if you can't see any change in the auxiliary track's mixing board meters), then it's a mono-to-stereo reverb.

I will always wind up checking my mixes in iTunes after playing them a few times in QuickTime player, because iTunes uses a "Sound Enhancer" function not too dissimilar to a broadcast MBL or compressor. This is where a mix that might even sound good under normal circumstances can fall apart, especially in the reverb department. I'll A/B roll it in iTunes against a similar commercial mix (Eighties' music, which uses more reverb than any other decade's, is the best type for this), and if I hear too much reverb in my mix at that point, I'll know something's wrong.

BUT ... it's not always the reverb. Too much limiting or compression in your mastering stage pushes down your actual mix and brings up the reverb that you may have mixed properly to begin with, making it sound much bigger than you intended. You may not even hear it until you get to something like iTunes, which adds even more compression/limiting and squashes your mix even more. If you like your "mastered" sound, you may have to compensate by backing off your reverb sends a bit. Or finding a more neutral/smaller reverb.

I almost never use convolution, except with my orchestral stuff. Since I use Symphobia 1/2, I tend to use the "stage" mics, which adds the sounds of whatever stage it was recorded on. I'll augment Symphobia with stuff like Philharmonik, or Acoustik Piano, which will have a more "dry" sound. So I wind up setting up a couple of Altiverb sends with a "scoring stage" preset on both, then switch off the early reflections on one of them for my Symphobia instruments, and full-on reverb for everything else. That seems to place everything in a unified space. Otherwise, convolution just seems too static to me to use on "regular" music; I'd rather have some lush and random and, yes, ARTIFICIAL-sounding reverb.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by labman »

We here, tend be 'room' choosers first, prior to any reverbs. And we get each trk in the proper room and 'perspective' first, then apply reverb, adjust PDelays, diffusion etc. I have found that if the inst, voc aren't placed in the appropriate room/space first, subsequent tracks via overdubs etc wont be played the same.

I guess it is the age old adage, dont procrastinate in making decisions.

I guyess our way of working goes against the old re-amping thing for rhy section inst, but this saves time, money and lots of arrangement headaches.

We do perhaps have one exception. And that is that I keep some nice hall on the Orch bus right from the get go, so the strgs, horns etc trk. If he wishes, the engineer then 'asks' if he can change that later, as the whole orchestration has been written to that place.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Prime Mover »

Armageddon wrote:I know a lot of you actually use reverbs as track inserts, whereas some of you are from the same "old-school" mindset I am and set up sends/auxiliary tracks to a room and hall reverb.
For fear of sounding cold and elitist, I'm going to say it: I don't think that any professional or advanced mixer uses reverbs on track inserts. I think that it's something that many novices do until they learn otherwise. It's not about "new school" or "old school", it's about control and efficiency. Track insert reverb is volatile, lacks control, is more CPU intensive, and usually results in disparate mixes, since every track likely has a different reverb. Now I'm sure there are exceptions: engineers who have come to prefer insert reverb over bussing, and I have nothing against different ways of working, I just think that they're very few, and very far between. But most of the time, it's simply because they don't know better.

Most of this community is made up of fairly advanced engineers. I consider myself a pretty knowledgable and capable engineer, yet I'm likely one of the least experienced engineers on this forum, because I'm one of the few here who doesn't do it as a day job (though actually my day job is pretty similar: video editing). So, I'm guessing the vast majority here bus. Hang around long enough, and you'll pick it up by osmosis.

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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by toodamnhip »

This has been a fascinating thread.
Love the pink noise idea.
And I am a BIG fan of EQing reverb.
I would also add a trick here:
Put a compressor on the reverb track, either before or after the verb.
This gives you a more packed reverb when in a denser mix or when desiring a more stable verb tail compared to initial verb attack.
And put a De-Esser BEFORE the reverb too if you find that the Highs hitting the verb are creating too big of a high end slap in initial verb transients.

There is no reason not to use all of one’s tools with todays technology so feel free to experiement with anything your imagination thinks of, such as chorusing after a verb, or delays.
And speaking of delays, I LOVE to create a lead vocal with some bounce to it.
It helps to negate the need to over reverberize (is that a word), a track.
I have this crazy little pre set of a delay that is followed by a telephonic filter. I use it all of the time, it is in my basic mix template, I hardly even change it between songs. It is set to something like slapping 16th notes with some feedback on the delays.
It is always there and all I have to do in a mix is send a little vocal signal to it to get some movement in the lead vocal. Though it is set to follow song tempo, the timing isn;t really important. Think of real world where echos are random too. It is just there for movement.
I will either use it on the ends of key phrases or, often, I leave it in for the vocal underneath the surface so to speak and that bounce underneath keeps me from using too much reverb.
If I do leave it on low all the time, I can then automate it to be louder on certain key phrases,
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by FMiguelez »

Nice tips, TDH.

I've been thinking more and more about the predelay settings on the reverbs. Yesterday I was listening to some of my favorite orchestral pieces, and one thing I LOVE about some recordings is how brass instruments have this sort of "slap-back" sound, especially when they play very loud staccato or sfz notes where the orchestration is not too heavy. It almost sounds like some sort of audible delay. And you can hear it as if sound were bouncing off the opposite side of the hall.

I tried experimenting with this. I could achieve a similar effect by using predelay in 2 ways:
some predelay between the dry and ERs, or between the ERs and tail.

The first way sounds more obvious, but this would be contrary to what happens in reality, would it not?
I'm still experimenting with this, but when I compare it to a real recording it sounds off... I'm not sure how to achieve this effect. It makes the brass sound huge and far away, but without sounding washy.

If someone wants to share a tip or an idea about that, I'm all ears.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by toodamnhip »

FMiguelez wrote:Nice tips, TDH.

I've been thinking more and more about the predelay settings on the reverbs. Yesterday I was listening to some of my favorite orchestral pieces, and one thing I LOVE about some recordings is how brass instruments have this sort of "slap-back" sound, especially when they play very loud staccato or sfz notes where the orchestration is not too heavy. It almost sounds like some sort of audible delay. And you can hear it as if sound were bouncing off the opposite side of the hall.

I tried experimenting with this. I could achieve a similar effect by using predelay in 2 ways:
some predelay between the dry and ERs, or between the ERs and tail.

The first way sounds more obvious, but this would be contrary to what happens in reality, would it not?
I'm still experimenting with this, but when I compare it to a real recording it sounds off... I'm not sure how to achieve this effect. It makes the brass sound huge and far away, but without sounding washy.

If someone wants to share a tip or an idea about that, I'm all ears.
And why not put a multi-tap delay BEFORE the reverb to add a little more motion to the ocean?
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Dan Worley »

Great tips. I'll add one which I've learned over the years: I used to go for the smoothest most lush reverbs I could get. I mean, come on, they're beautiful! I'm crazy for them. But beauty can kill. Instead, if you use a reverb that has a bit more of an edge to it (in other words, it's more coarse and not so beautiful), then you don't have to use nearly as much of it to catch the ear and sit in the mix. It really helps to keep things from turning into soup. It adds definition to placement and texture of tone.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Dan Worley »

FMiguelez wrote:Nice tips, TDH.

I've been thinking more and more about the predelay settings on the reverbs. Yesterday I was listening to some of my favorite orchestral pieces, and one thing I LOVE about some recordings is how brass instruments have this sort of "slap-back" sound, especially when they play very loud staccato or sfz notes where the orchestration is not too heavy. It almost sounds like some sort of audible delay. And you can hear it as if sound were bouncing off the opposite side of the hall.

I tried experimenting with this. I could achieve a similar effect by using predelay in 2 ways:
some predelay between the dry and ERs, or between the ERs and tail.

The first way sounds more obvious, but this would be contrary to what happens in reality, would it not?
I'm still experimenting with this, but when I compare it to a real recording it sounds off... I'm not sure how to achieve this effect. It makes the brass sound huge and far away, but without sounding washy.

If someone wants to share a tip or an idea about that, I'm all ears.
I'd suggest you download and read the section, In Search of Ambience in the Lexicon 480L manual. It's starts on page 39 (3-2). It's fascinating. The entire manual is great! You'll learn a lot.

Here's the link to download the PDF: Lexicon 480L Manual PDF
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by FMiguelez »

toodamnhip wrote: And why not put a multi-tap delay BEFORE the reverb to add a little more motion to the ocean?
Yes!
Why not?

I'm obviously much more conservative in my mixes with the orchestral stuff than in any other genre.
I'll definitely try your suggestion right now.

I mean, it's not like the Reverb-Delay Police is gonna come and get me... (if they do I guess I'll see you in Reverb's Dungeon?) :lol:

Thanks for the idea. I'll automate the delay only in the relevant sections to see what happens...
Dan Worley wrote: I'd suggest you download and read the section, In Search of Ambience in the Lexicon 480L manual. It's starts on page 39 (3-2). It's fascinating. The entire manual is great! You'll learn a lot.

Here's the link to download the PDF: Lexicon 480L Manual PDF
Excellent! I downloaded it and will read it tonight.

Thanks, guys! 8)
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Armageddon »

Prime Mover wrote:For fear of sounding cold and elitist, I'm going to say it: I don't think that any professional or advanced mixer uses reverbs on track inserts. I think that it's something that many novices do until they learn otherwise. It's not about "new school" or "old school", it's about control and efficiency. Track insert reverb is volatile, lacks control, is more CPU intensive, and usually results in disparate mixes, since every track likely has a different reverb. Now I'm sure there are exceptions: engineers who have come to prefer insert reverb over bussing, and I have nothing against different ways of working, I just think that they're very few, and very far between. But most of the time, it's simply because they don't know better.

Most of this community is made up of fairly advanced engineers. I consider myself a pretty knowledgable and capable engineer, yet I'm likely one of the least experienced engineers on this forum, because I'm one of the few here who doesn't do it as a day job (though actually my day job is pretty similar: video editing). So, I'm guessing the vast majority here bus. Hang around long enough, and you'll pick it up by osmosis.

The bus only goes one way, once you get on, you don't go back ;)
What you stated is exactly why I am amazed that I continue to encounter people who insist on using reverbs on track inserts, or why reverb plugs even lend themselves to the capability of being used that way, but I have seen a lot of people do just that. Even worse, it's not even the same kind of reverb; if somebody has ten different brands of reverb plug-in, they wind up using a different brand, type and consistency on each and every track of their project. That blows my mind. Unfortunately, it's also a by-product of being able to mix "in the box" and having a huge, affordable variety of plugs to toss around in any way you want to. I think you get into that mindset that, because you CAN do it, you SHOULD do it, but it's never even sounded right to me. I can't imagine at least looking up a couple of practical guides to see how it's conventionally done, even if you plan on not doing it conventionally.

I actually cut my teeth on a Tascam eight-track (cassette) MIDIStudio, where I was either dependent on whatever effects were being generated by my keyboards being slaved to the sequencer/recorder playing in tandem with my recorded mix, or to whatever I could squeeze out of my PreSONUS Blue compressor or my sole ART mono-to-stereo FX box (where a stack of FX meant "those couple of presets that mixed up a reverb with a phaser"), so not only was it necessary right off the bat to figure out what sends and returns did, I actually had to figure out the best singular algorithm I could use on everything, since there was no second (or tenth) reverb to go to, unless I wanted to start printing FX.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Prime Mover »

Yeah, there's an overwhelming tendancy that because you have all these options, you're supposed to use them. I'm not just talking in a "squee! I have lots of toys, let's play!" sort of way. Sometimes I actually feel that I'm obligated to use all my tools because I hear of so many hundreds of tips and processes that mixers do.

But probably more realistically, I'm sure every producer has their areas of perfectionism, and coast a bit more in other areas. Some may spend hours on finding the right reverbs, while not spending time doing fancy compression techniques (new york, etc). Some may spend hours EQing kick drums to perfection, but do a little less automation than the next guy.

To be sure, mixing is an excercise in absolute perfectionism, I've never known an endevour that's more meticulous (even studio lighting is seeming easier these days). There's so many variables to juggle: mix, EQ, dynamics, interaction between tracks (side-chaining and frequency automation), spacialization, take compositing, rhythm correction, pitch correction, padding, recording additional elements. The list goes ON AND ON. I often spend weeks on one track (well, many tracks, back and forth), and sometimes I still feel like I've only scratched the surface.

The one thing I notice is that I tend to leap-frog my mixes if I'm working on a group of tracks or an album. I'll get one track sounding pretty good, then move on to the second track, apply the same techniques and settings I used in the first track, then massage them out a bit more on the second track, then go back to the first and apply the new changes. Then I move onto the third, where I massage them even more so, and work on other areas, that I then can apply to my previous tracks. Maybe it's not the most efficient, and it's simply born out of the slow process of getting my head around a particular project, but I can't really think of doing it any other way. It's inevitable. The more you work with a group of tracks (even across many pieces), the better you understand them. By the end of the project, you're going to be a lot better at mixing them at the beginning, and if you didn't go back, you would have a huge discrepancy in quality between cuts.

Not to mention, I'm ALWAYS learning new things, on every project. Like new ideas on reverb during the current album I'm producing. If I want to use them, they need to be consistant across an entire project.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by toodamnhip »

Well said Prime,

All of what you said I agree with.
Especially learning and leap frogging, taking each lesson learned and applying it to others.

It is kind of weird to put one’s stamp of approval one a mix, be pretty much happy with it, learn more in the ensuing year, and come back to the mix and think you could do it better NOW. And each NOW moves forward and one is always raising the bar.

Maybe before the end of one’s life, one gets one PERFECT mix and no more than that?..lol

And two pithy statements could be added here:

1) How do you know when a record is finished?>>>>> The budget runs out.

2) ...From da Vinci:
"Art is never finished, only abandoned"
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by buzzsmith »

I'm very much enjoying this discourse and have printed this thread.

My only (slightly timid) comment is that I never use verb inserts on a track. I always use an Aux and sends. I, of course, may have 2 verbs (and maybe a delay) but still the same thing...Aux tracks and sends.

I have been known to experiment, however!

(Probably coming from the old analog console days.)

Buzzy

I'm gonna try the turntable thingy, too, soon.
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Re: Some Reverb Tips (and why pre-delay is so important)

Post by Prime Mover »

The one time I think it's perfectly acceptable to use reverb on a track is if your using it purely for an isolated effect. One wild synth solo with huge delays and reverb, never to be repeated, just is a part of the patch, that makes sense. Aside from that, bussing is king.
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