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TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby Gravity Jim » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:19 am

While recently shopping for a new digital console, I did some question-asking around the Web, including at Gearslutz. I had the Tascam DM3200 at the top of my list because its feature set fit my working style perfectly... but man, some of those guys really hate that board, either because it reminded them of some previous-gen Tascam console they hated or because it used the wrong veeblefezter in the potrzebie string or some other super-hyper-mega technical explanation of why it empirically has to suck.

So I did what any reasonable person would do when confronted with an outpouring of hatred at Gearslutz.

I bought the Tascam. :wink:
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby Radiogal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:12 am

Larry Mal wrote:Sorry, Radiogal. There are a lot of problems with this "test" of yours, and I can't accept the results. I know I'm raining on the parade here.

But it's not scientific, which means it's only anecdotal. There's enough of that already regarding the "sound" of DAWs. I fight against that a lot on Gearslutz, and just because software that I enjoy has been said to "win" doesn't mean I can accept the answer.


Please!!!!This was not "my test". Mind you!
I´m just the messenger and sharing info about this event with you guys! As an engineer I found this intresting.

Man, why do they all keep picking on me?!!!!

Okay! PT 10 and Cubase came 2:nd. Happy now? It´s just how you put it.
DP was the most liked DAW. I believe I wrote that more often than ever using "win" or "won". Gaaah!
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TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:26 am

Dan Worley wrote:Thanks for getting DP included in the test, Radiogal. That was exciting!

Completely ignore the nastiness and idiocy that will be directed at you just for posting this.

c-ya,

Dan Worley


That's worth repeating here, Radiogal. You've got troops here, girl! The test is what it is. It may not be what some might want it to be to which I say 'Do your own test' and then we can talk. Otherwise the condemnations are just more noise than even the worst DAW might have. More like a skipping record.
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby Larry Mal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:33 am

It's not you! I like you, and I like Digital Performer!

It's just that unlike some of you, I do participate in Gearslutz... probably more than is mentally healthy. One of the main things I do on that site is to combat audio myths. Chief among those is the concept that different DAWs sound differently inherently.

You know. I've heard lately that Pro Tools is best for "rock and roll" for some reason. Now I'm hearing that Logic sounds "compressed". But no one can ever tell me why, exactly, this would be so.

I point out that nothing that happens in computer audio is nor can be an unknown factor. Computers simply process information in a predictable way based on how they are told to process it. If Logic sounds "compressed", that's because someone made it to be compressed, which they didn't, or they screwed up very badly, since the output of Logic is not the sum we would expect it to be.

The chief problem I have with this test is not that it's a blind listening test in an uncontrolled environment, but mainly that it was done with a group of people. That has been shown time and time again to skew results.

For instance, if I am the first one in the group to say that, "The first computer sounds better. The third computer sounds more compressed," then there is a slight pressure for anyone who follows to agree with me. We all like to think we are independent thinkers who can make decisions based on what is right and wrong, but this is completely false. It's natural for human beings to conform to the standards of their group, and it's natural for groups of humans to develop leaders who are perceived as setting those standards to a large degree.

And if there emerges a majority that agrees that one computer sounds better, there will be a tendency for folks to go along with that majority. All of them? No. Some will try and analyze and come to an independent conclusion. But it will be enough to make any results suspect.

In the same way, I pointed out on Gearslutz, I could assemble people in a group and tell them that I wanted to find out which of two colas they preferred to drink. I could pour the exact same sodas and claim that they are different, and over time it will emerge that the group prefers the taste of one over the other. It will likely not be 50/50, and they will not perceive the colas as being the same. Even if they don't actually speak to each other about which they prefer, there is a whole range of other ways that human beings communicate preference that will be going on.

And that is why I am suspect of this test. It might have been double blind, but there was an entire other set of biases introduced here that render any results moot in my eyes.

Again, I know you didn't do the test and I have nothing but respect and admiration for you, I just can't be silent about my skepticism of the results.
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby FMiguelez » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:35 am

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:That's worth repeating here, Radiogal. You've got troops here, girl!

+1000.

People always want to shoot the messenger... :shake:

Actually, I'm not disappointed of the GS crowd. They are acting like they always do. What else could we possibly expect from them??? :roll:

The point is that the test RG talks about is burning a hole in some of them. Like we say here, they are hearing steps on their roofs (it that makes any sense - meaning their usual paradigms have been challenged and rocked, and not for good :lol: ). I guess that pisses them off? :lol:
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby FMiguelez » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:42 am

Larry Mal wrote:For instance, if I am the first one in the group to say that, "The first computer sounds better. The third computer sounds more compressed," then there is a slight pressure for anyone who follows to agree with me. We all like to think we are independent thinkers who can make decisions based on what is right and wrong, but this is completely false. It's natural for human beings to conform to the standards of their group, and it's natural for groups of humans to develop leaders who are perceived as setting those standards to a large degree.

Maybe so.
But these people were not the usual cows or sheep who blindly follow anything. They were professional engineers with strong egos and opinions...

I doubt any of them would be "afraid" of disagreeing with another one.

The test just shows they preferred the sound of one DAW over the others over a period of multiple takes and 2.5 hours. And it was not by a slight margin either...

We don't actually know the algorithms any DAW uses to sum stuff. Perhaps the difference is there?
Also, if Logic had "won", would there be the same reactions over there?

If you could describe the IDEAL/ULTIMATE DAW listening test, what would it be like exactly?
Would it be even possible to do a truly scientific listening test taking into account that sound/music are totally subjective?
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby Radiogal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:03 pm

Imagine this:
5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P

"Hurray PT 10 was the most liked DAW!! 30+ audio pro engineers. Man! That many?? So cool!!! PT10 Sounded the fullest deepest and most complete. Hurray hurray!!! Fanfare!!! Yeah buddy! I´ve been using PT since I was born. You too.. ?? Love this DAW. Love you guys. We´re rocking!!! Let´s spread the news about this! Let´s tell the world!!! Let´s post on GS......"


What really happens right now on GS:
"Whut? No, really... DP ... are you kidding??? Oh No!!!! That´s not.. eh..true.. eh? No the test must be wrong. All DAW sound the same! Must be something wrong with the set up!!! Those stupid swedes must be totally nuts. All must be deaph so called engineers and audio slaves following their leaders, MOTU dictators probably.
Man, all swedish music sounds crap. DP??? This just can´t be true...!! Must check RG post on GS.. See!!! She writes about DP in other posts too!!! Man, she´s to DP friendly. No wonder!!! Stupid girl to post this BS. Knows nothing about anything about what GS is all about"..."
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby Larry Mal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:11 pm

FMiguelez wrote:Maybe so.
But these people were not the usual cows or sheep who blindly follow anything. They were professional engineers with strong egos and opinions...

I doubt any of them would be "afraid" of disagreeing with another one.

The test just shows they preferred the sound of one DAW over the others over a period of multiple takes and 2.5 hours. And it was not by a slight margin either...

We don't actually know the algorithms any DAW uses to sum stuff. Perhaps the difference is there?
Also, if Logic had "won", would there be the same reactions over there?

If you could describe the IDEAL/ULTIMATE DAW listening test, what would it be like exactly?
Would it be even possible to do a truly scientific listening test taking into account that sound/music are totally subjective?


Yeah, you would think that, but perception bias (among other biases that are introduced during testing) is a human phenomenon and thus affects everyone. It's tempting to think that people of a certain education or experience or anything else are able to think more clearly, but it's not true.

You could have done the test with the same software and gotten a favorite. And like I say, I am not surprised to hear that it was not a close call in favor of laptop #1. That simply tells me that group think was very strong and that is what I would expect.

It would be very hard to do a completely scientific listening test, which is why it rarely happens. How would I set up such a test? Well, I would have to spend a lot of time thinking about that which I am not really willing to do since I'm not going to do such a test. When I get paid to do that test, then I'll decline because I am not qualified to do such a test anyway, and I would at a minimum have to do a lot of learning in order to conduct scientific testing. Not everyone can do that, you know... it's a job and a skill. You know, the same as not everyone can do your job, even though a lot of people probably think they can and have some of the equipment and knowledge to do it?

Personally, though, I place more stock in measurements. Again, it's computer audio, predictable and measurable. And testable. If I want to know what the output of a DAW is compared to the output of another DAW with the same settings, then I measure the results. I have more stock in that than I do with using ears, whether they be mine or other's.
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby FMiguelez » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:56 pm

Radiogal wrote:Imagine this:
5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P

"Hurray PT 10 was the most liked DAW!! 30+ audio pro engineers. Man! That many?? So cool!!! PT10 Sounded the fullest deepest and most complete. Hurray hurray!!! Fanfare!!! Yeah buddy! I´ve been using PT since I was born. You too.. ?? Love this DAW. Love you guys. We´re rocking!!! Let´s spread the news about this! Let´s tell the world!!! Let´s post on GS......"


What really happens right now on GS:
"Whut? No, really... DP ... are you kidding??? Oh No!!!! That´s not.. eh..true.. eh? No the test must be wrong. All DAW sound the same! Must be something wrong with the set up!!! Those stupid swedes must be totally nuts. All must be deaph so called engineers and audio slaves following their leaders, MOTU dictators probably.
Man, all swedish music sounds crap. DP??? This just can´t be true...!! Must check RG post on GS.. See!!! She writes about DP in other posts too!!! Man, she´s to DP friendly. No wonder!!! Stupid girl to post this BS. Knows nothing about anything about what GS is all about"..."


:lol:

Frankly, it's sad, but you are SO RIGHT! That's exactly what would've happened in your first scenario.
Even sadder, the second one is what is happening right now... they must be even questioning Swedes' taste, music and skills :shake:

Perhaps MOTU's CEO is Swedish too?

Had we done this same test in Mexico, we would've been accused of bribing the audience... and they would probably be right! :mrgreen:

:lol:
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby cbergm7210 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:18 pm

Had we done this same test in Mexico, we would've been accused of bribing the audience :mrgreen:


You rock, FM. :lol:
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:32 pm

Well again, it is what it is. It was a taste test and there is no quantifying a taste test. There are empirical methods of conducting the test but no conclusion can be drawn - except what the majority of people liked and didn't like. What may be irking the GS folks is that they can't tip the scales as there is no poll involved.

Not just a funny picture, but an interesting and perhaps relevant article... just click on the picture... if you do, be sure to at least scroll down to the picture of the guys holding their noses! Too funny and I do believe some of those guys may be the ones who are posting on GS... LOL!

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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby jloeb » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:05 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:What may be irking the GS folks is that they can't tip the scales as there is no poll involved.

LOL.

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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby mikehalloran » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:12 pm

I think the most telling fact - and the one that cannot be denied is this: DP wasn't worse than the others.

We are often criticized by users of other products, especially PT and occasionally Logic, for using something that isn't up to their level professionally - whatever that really means beyond personal bias (no, I'm not talking about BIAS). This seems to be most rife in the world of film scoring and production where some still can't accept that mag film and Tascam Digital-8 are dead.

Can you imagine the vitriol if, instead of DP, it was GarageBand, R_____ or Audacity that came out on top? In thit particular test, it could have happened but didn't as none are considered professional tools - and rightly so as they aren't.

Yes, a more comprehensive test involving VIs and plugins would be nice. Perhaps, someday, someone will do it. This one, however, is what it is and DP stands on its merits: Excellent sound that doesn't take a back seat to anything else out there.

Congrats, RG, for a job well done!
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby Larry Mal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:20 pm

Right, but persuading one's self that Digital Performer sounds better based on this test only makes you the same as all the myopic people you complain about on Gearslutz, only myopic about different software.

That's what I'm trying to tell folks. Don't like the Gearslutz Pro Tools bullies and their attitude towards Digital Performer, based on nothing except opinion? Don't become them in the opposite direction. That's why this site is better in a lot of ways to that one, because it has a more knowledgeable user base over all. I'm surprised to be reading this here.
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Re: TEST: 5 DAWs 5 MBP Optical O/P You better read this :)

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:22 pm

jloeb wrote:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:What may be irking the GS folks is that they can't tip the scales as there is no poll involved.

LOL.

"R•••••! It's R••••• that sounds the best!!! R•••••!!"


That's just grim!
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