DP7 For Live Playback (Dual Computers?)

[yourfan]

New user here to DP7 and I've just started using it for live playback and love it. We rely so much on backing tracks if our computer went down we'd be in HUGE trouble. Is there anyone with experience here running DUAL computers one as a backup incase another fails? If so I'd love to hear how you did it. Would be great if one failed the other picked up right where the other left off.

We have the following gear:
(2) Macbook Pros Dual 2.66 8gb RAM
(1) 828 MKII

[kwiz]

This article should answer some of your questions.

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/beyonce-i ... hterm=kwiz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

[yourfan]

Hey Kwiz,
this is perfect! Exactly what I was looking for. Obviously you have quite a bit of experience in this area. We are syncing our lighting changes to the backing tracks as well so obviously a fail in our system would be devastating to the show. I read in the article you use a custom live sequencer switcher made by Paul Cox. Is this what you use incase of a system fail? If one system fails does the other pick up seamlessly?

Thanks so much Kwiz!
Dan

[kwiz]

That's exactly what happens, but the Paul Cox switcher handles the audio only.
If you're handling lighting cues via mtc etc., I'd imagine that you'd need to have redundant mtc lines going to your lighting system. We don't do that with Beyonce since she has a separate lighting director with his own redundant system.

[yourfan]

Thanks so much Kwiz you were a great help.

[dsamwell]

Hi Kwiz,

Could you answer a quick question for me?

I work for a band form the UK and I'm putting together a playback system for them. We only need 7 channels of playback and in the past I've used fostex machines, but as it's so few channels I've opted for a DP based system with motu ultralite mk3 interfaces. I've never used DP before but have been reliably informed its the best software for playback so it's what Im going for.

(forgive me for stating the obvious here and telling you to suck eggs but just want to be painfully clear what Im after.....)

Im going to have two identical systems (A and B) and a radial sw8 so we can auto switch if the A machine goes down. With the fostex d2424 there is a sync mode "chase once" you can set the B machine to. That way, it waits for incoming time code then when it gets it, it will lock to it and start playing. Once its playing, it then ignores the timecode and keeps playing until it gets to the end of the "chain" of songs you have set. That way if the A machine goes down you can switch to the B machine with the SW8 seamlessly an no one notices that the A machine has gone down.

Does DP have a sync mode similar to this? I would like to output MTC from the A system into the B system and have the B system run in a mode similar to "chase once" on the fostex.

Im sure this must be possible, but just want to check before I go ahead and order it all! If it's not, Im sure with your systems you have a backup running in sync so how do you achieve that?

Does anyone else have advice about this also?


Thanks in advance!

[kwiz]

Hi dsamwell,

Believe it or not, I sync the machines manually. I trigger both machines by simultaneously hitting both space bars! Another way of doing it would be to use a program called Synergy that a programmer friend told me about. It involves syncing both computers via an ethernet cable and by typing in the proper commands in the terminal. It works well and allows you to start both computers using one space bar, but I prefer my method best.
As far as synching goes, I don't sync the computers using TC because I never want either computer to be slaved to a code.

Hope this helps.

[Shooshie]

Kwiz is right. Slaving DP to timecode is not necessarily a good idea. I performed live with Performer and then DP for 20 years. I never had a single failure on stage. Ever. Just in case something happened, I had a backup system (interfaces and all) up and running, but I never needed to use it. For the sake of argument, let's say there IS a problem. You don't know whether it's the computer, MIDI Interface, Audio Interface, or some other stage of the rig. An experienced user can figure it out in about 5 seconds, but in my opinion you'd be better off taking the risk without your backup being on a slave, so that if something happens you can evaluate it and respond to the troubled element. Having that code running while you're figuring out the problem just adds another dimension to the problem and recovery, and not a constructive one.

It's a whole different feeling doing this on stage with 5000 or so people watching. You don't want to be figuring out this problem and the timecode issue, and so forth with that kind of pressure. If the show has to stop for 10 seconds while you switch out a plug, so be it. The lead can improvise with vocal patter or jokes about technology if necessary. But chances are very likely that you will never have a problem in concert.

Shooshie

[dsamwell]

Kwiz is right. Slaving DP to timecode is not necessarily a good idea. I performed live with Performer and then DP for 20 years. I never had a single failure on stage. Ever. Just in case something happened, I had a backup system (interfaces and all) up and running, but I never needed to use it. For the sake of argument, let's say there IS a problem. You don't know whether it's the computer, MIDI Interface, Audio Interface, or some other stage of the rig. An experienced user can figure it out in about 5 seconds, but in my opinion you'd be better off taking the risk without your backup being on a slave, so that if something happens you can evaluate it and respond to the troubled element. Having that code running while you're figuring out the problem just adds another dimension to the problem and recovery, and not a constructive one.

It's a whole different feeling doing this on stage with 5000 or so people watching. You don't want to be figuring out this problem and the timecode issue, and so forth with that kind of pressure. If the show has to stop for 10 seconds while you switch out a plug, so be it. The lead can improvise with vocal patter or jokes about technology if necessary. But chances are very likely that you will never have a problem in concert.

Shooshie

Im afraid I don't agree with this. With this gig if playback stops Id probably get the sack. I don't know if your familiar with sw8s but with them, you run a 1k tone from the A rig into it, and once its armed, if the 1k tone stops, it auto switches to the B system. With the B system running in sync, the switchover is seamless. I've used this system before with other artists when using fostex machines and it's such a seamless switch over, NO ONE can tell, only my good self sat in playback world. And I've NEVER had this happen in a gig situation but I would always in soundcheck turn off the A machine mid song to check, and no one EVER noticed.

I HAVE to have a B rig running at the same time as the A rig.


Im not talking about having an aditional timecode generator or anything, let me explain what I've done in the past...... With the Fostex machines you just run timecode out of the A rig into the B rig, with the B rig in "chase once mode". The A rig outputs tone to the sw8, and if it goes down, the B rig carries on seamlessly. Whilst this plays you can figure out whats wrong with the A rig, then switch back to it once you've got it up and going again.


Kwiz - Pressing both space bars is a beautifully simple solution to this! I assume you have a show caller who gives you the cue to play or something similar? I don't have that luxury, and additionally the drummer wants playback control and what with having to start, then get ready to play I don't think he could do it reliably. That and he is a musician, and I wouldn't ever trust a drummer to do two things at once, even though I suppose really he's meant to be doing that for a living. Would never work though...


I have read you can set DP to "freewheel" so if timecode drops out it can continue on for a while. I gather this is designed for when you have unstable code, and the odd frame gets lost, but can it be set to freewheel forever, not just for a few frames?

[dsamwell]

OOH! I've answered my own question. The power of google!

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/88801" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Found this. It describes the exact set up Im going to use.

So all I have to do is set the freewheel to "infinite" and it will run on if the A rig goes down.



This is actually BETTER than the fostex machines Ive used in the past. On the Fostex, as soon as the B rig recieves stable timecode, it starts playing, and once it has established it is running in sync, it ignores the incoming timecode and runs off by itself. Although the clocks on the machines are pretty stable, if you have a particularly long chain of songs (say 30min) by the end they could have drifted slightly (maybe only a few frames, but if you have a particularly good session drummer they might notice and it could throw them off. If they're good enough to notice, they'll be good enough to deal with it no doubt, but it's not ideal).

My understanding of the DP "freewheel" mode is that it will run along in sync, and when the timecode from the A rig disapears it just continues to run from its own internal clock. This means that right up until the moment they switch, they will be running perfectly in sync.

The more I learn about DP the more I like it! I can't wait to get my new rig. Ill post how I get on.



Just one thing to check. The link I posted referred to DP5. I assume with the newest version you can still set this freewheel to "infinite"? Could someone check and confirm for me? Thanks

[Shooshie]

Well, that DOES sound like an excellent device. I was not familiar with the SW8, so I looked it up and checked it out.

Radial SW8

The website was copyrighted in 2007, but I don't know when the device was invented. 2007 was the last time I performed live with DP, so I guess I just completely missed out on that technology. And it's great to know how well it works with DP.

It was engineered to avoid exactly what I was most afraid of -- a crash that locks one device into another one which is no longer generating time code. That is the reason I never actually slaved the redundant computer to the active one. But now that there is this device, I think I'd definitely want to give it a try if I were still directing shows. Thanks for mentioning it.

Shooshie

[Garf]

Hi Guys,
I know this is an old thread, but I'm trying to figure out if there is a freewheel mode in DP9 in case I lose MTC on my slave machine. Sounds like it may exist, but I'm having trouble finding it.
thx!