VSL Dimension Brass or Wallander Instruments?

[hrw]

Want some new Brass stuff. Anyone have an opinion between these 2 libraries. Would like to hear more about Wallander instruments from DP users' experiences. I heard about them on this forum somewhere...
was it you Shoosh?

[Frodo]

Yup-- Shooshie will be your Wallander guy. He's spoken well of it as one who uses a wind controller and as one who uses a keyboard. I've heard what he's done with Wallander and am constantly blown away.

I'm not qualified to do a comparison, but I got Dimension Brass last month and love it, especially for the way it works with Vienna Instruments Pro (not to be confused with Vienna Ensemble Pro). If it matters, the VSL stuff is more expensive and that can be a deterrent for some.

Oh, Shoosh?

[Shooshie]

I think it comes down to what kind of player you are, and I'm talking about MIDI playing, not necessarily playing real instruments, though virtuosity on real instruments certainly carries over to Wallander more than it does to VSL. Let me frame it for you in an overview of my personal quest to find instruments on which I can express myself.

I started in the late 1980s with a Yamaha WX-7 -- a MIDI Wind Controller -- which was literally the draw that got me into MIDI. I was a professional classical musician looking for ways to move beyond the traditional showpieces and concert repertoire, and the WX-7 looked like the way to do that. It was, but the sounds available to play on it were in the MIDI stone age, just a little more advanced than rubbing rocks together. I had to program every sound I used, and though I got close to real instruments, there was never any question that they were synths. I tried again and again over the years with various technologies. Same deal each time, though each wave of advances would definitely move us closer. But "closer" in this regard was like walking across the prairies on foot, seeing the Rocky Mountains up ahead as your goal. They just didn't get any bigger, no matter how long we walked.

Fast forward now to the year Wallander was released. There were several good attempts at orchestral libraries by this time. Garritan's was usable, and a very good MIDI "performer" could make GPO fool the ear into believing it was an orchestra. DPDan, of this forum, posted some amazing works that were done entirely in GPO. MOTU Symphonic Instrument was very flawed, but you could produce a recording that sounded as good as, say, a live recording from the 1940's. VSL was where it was at. With VSL, someone with the patience to learn the very difficult programming skills necessary for the original version could produce truly professional quality recordings, if they didn't lapse and lose their attention to detail. Some of the most amazing examples of that period are from Jay Bacal, a VSL demo programmer. His recording of Borodin's string quartet in D is truly a MIDI masterpiece. And Vienna had just put out a new interface a year or two before, which made programming the numerous switches from one "articulation" to another seamless, crossfaded, and forgiving of the occasional lapse of detail.

But there was still one problem. These people weren't "playing" the instruments. They were programming an instrumental interface. But if you did you work, the sounds of Vienna were extremely convincing. Suddenly we were at the base of the mountains, and those willing to climb hard and tirelessly could make it a significant way up in regard to the final output.

Then came Wallander Instruments with the WIVI interface. First Arnie Wallander -- a Swedish programmer -- created the brass instruments. I expected little when I downloaded the demo, but I plugged it into the old WX-5 (the current incarnation of the Yamaha WX wind controller line), and it blew my socks off. Without any programming or adjusting, I was suddenly half-way up the mountain, and I was playing anything from baroque trumpet to Louis Armstrong using a plunger mute, and it felt awesome to play. But I had something that not everyone has: 20 years of experience with a WX instrument, MIDI, and sound programming on top of a lifetime of playing real wind instruments. I had control over my vibrato, pitch, airstream, and the musicality and phrasing necessary to pull of such performances. People always point that out to me when I tell them this story, because they believe it is what makes the difference. I say maybe, but then again, there is no other library on the planet that puts me so high up the mountain before I even play a note! That has to count for something, too.

Next, Arnie delivered the woodwinds. They started with mixed capabilities. Clarinet and oboe were great. Flute not so much. Bassoon, very good. But since then the woodwinds have been upgraded at least twice, and now they are all on the level of the brass. When it comes to saxophones, though, the instrument itself is subjective. I do not want to sound like some other person playing sax. I have my own concepts, and I need a MIDI instrument that can let me be me. WIVI does that to a great extent. By moving formants around, EQ'ing, and other adjustments possible with WIVI, I was able to get the saxes very close to my own sound concepts. They are very, very good.

I now have every brass and woodwind instrument available for WIVI. I'm very happy with them, though they are not perfect. The question comes up: "how are they for keyboard instruments?" I should emphasize that they were designed for keyboards. They have complete envelope controls -- more than I've ever seen in any synth. Those envelope controls are variable in real time with MIDI controllers. Just about every adjustment on the WIVI interface can be modified in real time with MIDI controllers. There are probably more than 100 controls; I haven't counted. You will do well with the defaults for each instrument.

Moreover, for each instrument you get at least three, and sometimes four models. Therefore your instruments do not sound or respond exactly alike. You can play them as sections, and program them (easily) to split into divisi parts when there are chords, intelligently with each instrument taking its pre-desginated place in the section -- lead, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, bass. That's a good thing for quick MIDI programming from a keyboard.

The instruments work best, IMO, with a breath controller. Those can be used with keyboard, or you can get an actual MIDI wind instrument like the WX-5 or the Akai EWI, and play like an orchestral player. The breath controller for keyboard is called the Yamaha BC3A headset, and you can get it from Amazon. A note about MIDI Breath Control for keyboards: some keyboards have a port for this. Most don't. Check your keyboard first. If you've got it, then all you need is a headset. If you don't, you'll require a MIDI converter. Amazon sells that, too. Here is the package deal for the BC3A and the MIDI Breath Converter.

Those are, again, the best ways to program MIDI, IMO. But if you do not want to use breath control, WIVI responds to ALL the other MIDI controllers, and they can be assigned to any control in WIVI. I suggest at a minimum you should have a very good set of MIDI pedals, and a keyboard with aftertouch, ribbon controllers, and/or other faders. The Roland FC300 is the best MIDI pedal control I know of, and it's built for severe abuse. (like a tank)



To sum up: If you need for the virtual instrument to basically "play itself," and you don't mind the programming it takes to make that happen, VSL is probably the better bet. THe sounds you get from VSL are not widely adjustable, but they do come out sounding like the Vienna Philharmonic on stage. Just select the right articulation for each phrase of your music, and you'll have access to the same stuff that the best are using. The playing, of course, still requires talent!

If you are a musician seeking the satisfaction of self-expression on a MIDI instrument that you get from your real instruments, WIVI sits pretty much alone on its own mountaintop. I think the entries from Lucato & Tommasini are probably close to that mountaintop; maybe even on their own mountains. People give glowing reports for them here. They, too, are designed for both keyboard and MIDI Wind Controller. Any of the above can create amazing MIDI performances; it's just a matter of how you prefer to get there.

My preference is WIVI. You can get 170 woodwind and brass instruments and modify them infinitely. There are no strings yet, as far as I know, though Arnie Wallander is reportedly working on them, and has been for a few years. There are two levels: an entry level interface without the detailed adjustments for every parameter, and there's the pro interface which alone costs several hundred dollars, but worth every penny. None of these things are cheap, though compared to the cost of Vienna, WIVI is spare change! I didn't comment on WIVI's built-in soundstage, on which you can position your instruments arranged as they would be in an orchestra, and they sound that way. I didn't mention the multitude of rooms (including the anechoic chamber) of any size or dimension you desire. I didn't mention the ease of saving and restoring individual instruments or entire ensembles, of layering them so that you can get rid of those cluttering the interface when you're focusing on a few, and I neglected to mention dozens of other controls, features, and brilliant ideas that are unique in the world of virtual instruments. WIVI is deep. But from the first note on a trumpet or oboe or whatever, I believe you'll be hooked. Remember: formants control timbre. If your sound is too dark or bright, move formants positively or negatively, respectively. A little goes a long way; then EQ the rest.

Good luck. Choose what you like best. I'll answer any questions I can.

Shooshie

[Mr_Clifford]

Firstly, I love the WIVI brass instruments. I mainly use the trumpet and french horn. Being able to swell from a ppp right through to a cracking fff on the same note is amazing, and something that sample-based libraries struggle to do (although they're getting better). Unfortunately I don't have VSL brass so I can't compare - my last brass sample library was the QL Brass from East-West, which I don't really use since getting the WIVI intruments.

Now for something slightly OT....... Shooshie, do you have any recordings of stuff you've done using the WIVI woodwinds? I recently tried the woodwind demo and really wasn't very impressed at all. You speak very highly of it, so I'm thinking now, maybe it was my playing/programming. To me they all sounded very bland and had very little character - probably ok for ensemble wind stuff up the back of the orchestra, but I couldn't make any solo stuff sound any good. I'm very willing to have my mind changed, as I really love the more organic approach of WIVI instruments (as you so eloquently explained in your post).

[Shooshie]

Now for something slightly OT....... Shooshie, do you have any recordings of stuff you've done using the WIVI woodwinds? I recently tried the woodwind demo and really wasn't very impressed at all. You speak very highly of it, so I'm thinking now, maybe it was my playing/programming. To me they all sounded very bland and had very little character - probably ok for ensemble wind stuff up the back of the orchestra, but I couldn't make any solo stuff sound any good. I'm very willing to have my mind changed, as I really love the more organic approach of WIVI instruments (as you so eloquently explained in your post).

I'm not satisfied with the state of my projects, as I am currently not under any deadline, and this has been a learning process, therefore I'm usually trying new things and rarely finishing one. Periodically I burn one just as a record of "where things stand." Unfortunately, I haven't done that in about a year, so my "where things stand" recordings are all very flawed. Not at all where they are now, and yet they do contain good things. So, I'll post a few with some reservations.

The first was made a month or two after acquiring VSL strings. I really didn't have much control over the strings at this time, and this work had only superficially been updated for those instruments, having been programmed originally for vastly inferior ones. So, I apologize for my strings. The woodwinds, trumpet and horn, though, are pretty good.

Jacques Ibert: Concertino da Camera Mvt.II

Next is the first movement of that piece. This was done with the first version of WIVI Saxophones, and I was not able to get the sax sound I wanted at that time. (I can now) This, however, is a valid sax sound -- an alto with the timbre of an Arnold Brillhart Mouthpiece, approximately a 3* facing. I never liked those, and now I've improved this sax to sound like the one in the link above. But it was the best i could do at the time. Since then I've also panned the sax back to center. It's an ensemble piece, and I was experimenting with moving it out of center to let other instruments share that space. I don't like it that way, but… it was a learning experience.

JacquesIbert: Concertino da Camera Mvt. I (sometimes you have to reload this link a time or two to get it to work, but it usually loads. If not, you may have to download it to Finder, then open it in Quicktime)

Here are a couple movements from a sax quartet. Unfortunately the reverb is too much. But I didn't bother to make another. Again… just experimenting:
Glazunov: Canzona I (like the above link, this one may require reloading or downloading)
Glazunov Sax Quartet: Canzona, Variation IV

The following sextet uses the original oboe and flute in WIVI. I never liked the flute, but the piece is rendered well enough that the music is certainly there. The oboe is outstanding.
Heitor Villa-Lobos: Sextuor Mystique, Flute, Oboe, Saxophone, Celeste, Guitar, and Harp


The sad thing is that I don't have a single 2-track of WIVI since the last major overhaul, which has thoroughly improved the flute and saxes, and has made the overall sound control much more effective. But what's here is within the ballpark. Just needed certain changes, most of which have been made now. When I get back to these pieces again for the final round, which I think will be within the next six months, I'll post them.

Strings remain my nemesis. It's so hard to get real orchestral string performances, even with Vienna, though arguably it gets easier as you buy more "articulations" for them. My setup is pretty limited, though I hope to get more strings soon. Then maybe I can finish some of these and put them behind me.

Wallander's WIVI may not be the last set of woodwinds & brass I ever buy, but so far I have not been tempted, and I don't see that happening any time soon. I'm quite happy with them, imperfections and all.

A few more:
J.S. Bach, Partita for Flute Solo: Allemand - This was recorded with Miroslav's flute, if I remember correctly. I post it for contrast with the following WIVI flute pieces. These flute solos were recorded directly to audio, so I can't go back and see what instruments I used. I have no MIDI files for them.

Anderson: Etude #1 for Flute Solo - This is recorded with the first WIVI flute, back in 2007.
Anderson: Etude #6 for Flute - Also WIVI flute
Bach: Flute Sonata #VI, movement 2 - WIVI flute and harpsichord (don't remember the library)

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

Good topic -- I had meant to ask Frodo about VSL Dimension Brass before the discount expires (if it hasn't already), but didn't want to distract him from his gorgeous new Rickenbacker 12-string guitar.

I didn't like any of the on-line demos (at least the ones posted 6-8 weeks ago), so kind of dismissed this product as not very expressive without tremendous effort. I decided to hold out for Hollywood Brass or more likely the LASS equivalent when it arrives. But there's no one more likely to change my mind on Dimension Brass than Frodo (unless Guy Bacos and others have posted more compelling demos by now).

I completed an early mock-up of the main motif and transition point of an operatic overture (basic instrumentation only -- I was in a hurry) last night, and needed suitably Wagnerian horns. I found VSL's Triple Horn and 8-member horn ensemble too brash, and as the 4-member horn ensemble didn't go up to as high a pitch as I needed, I was forced to use the Solo Horn to double the line, just to reach the last three notes! The end result doesn't have quite the articulation I would like, but with more time maybe I could have eked that out of VSL's existing brass patches.

Hmm, maybe I should send Frodo that short MIDI file to see if Dimension Brass works any wonders on my Horn motif? For mock-up purposes, it will do, but this is going to be used at a live theatrical show (no pit orchestra; lack of funds and the venue is too small). So, I began rethinking about Dimension Brass myself last night.

For Horn though, there is also the upcoming Sample Modeling library, which is to be their next release (unless Tuba comes first). So far though, I have found their products better suited to Broadway, Jazz, Big Band, Pop, Reggae, etc., than traditional classical applications, due to the timbre (which can be adjusted some, based on some hints posed by Sample Modeling forum members, but so far I haven't tried those ideas to see if I can tame the rather splatty character, which of course is perfect for many applications).

As for Wallander, the Horn was not one of my favourites when last I tried their demo. I will probably upgrade my Saxophones package to the full deal this year anyway though, as the price has come down considerably. And as others have mentioned, Wallander can work well when doubled with something else. And some of their instruments are strong enough on their own; like most products, it is uneven in what it does best (this is true of VSL as well).

I also haven't tried the existing EWQLSO Horns yet -- but their Solo Cello sometimes works out better for me on expressive cello/piano Sonato type forms than VSL, so maybe the EWQLSO approach is particularly well suited to Horns as well.

As for Trombones, I haven't yet tamed the one from Sample Modeling, but hope to soon. I did get some great rises and falls from it, but it took more work than doits and falls with The Trumpet.

But whatever the case, I think it's nice to have more than one choice for orchestral instruments, as different projects might call for a different timbre (dark, warm, harsh, cold, whatever).

In other words, buy them all.

[mhschmieder]

As for MIDI foot controllers, there are more options now than before, but I haven't the time to look them up. Some of them are guitar-oriented so I don't know if they have general applicability. But this seems to be a burgeoning area of the market right now.

As far as older products go, the similar Yamaha pedalboard is slightly different from Roland's, cheaper, quite ancient, but still in the catalog (MFC-10). One of its interesting and useful features is that it can accept the phantom powered WX-MIDI cable from the WX-5, which can improve ergonomics both at home/studio and at gigs. But the Roland has two expression pedals, which the Yamaha doesn't. Newer pedalbpoards from IK Multimedia, Native Instruments, and others, also tend to have two expression pedals.

[Frodo]

The problem with online mp3 demos is that the listener is at the mercy of the skill of the creator of that mp3. That can reflect well or poorly on the product. I'm not sure how well developers are aware of that.

There are a couple of sides to this, though. Some users don't want to or cannot work as hard to do what it takes to make any of these VIs as convincing as they might be. I, for one, cannot even pretend that a beautifully wind-controlled VI is going to be the most effective way I could pull this stuff off well.

Developers are always endeavoring to cater to "the average user". The problem with that is most people savvy with VIs in general with musical ideas smoldering like overlooked embers would sooner think of themselves as "above average" and not quite so ordinary or average.

A lot of what I see on this forum bounces between notions of, "I just want to be able to do x-y-z without having to sweat a-b-c". There is also the contingency of users who don't mind sweating "a-b-c" if the detailing most important to them can be realized.

The truth is (in further response to the OP)--- we're stuck. One size does not fit all. One VI doesn't suit all needs. One GUI does not cater to all workflows.

Why is it that it's so much easier to understand that in terms of shoe size comfort than it is in terms of VI comfort zone?

Neither does that imply that any one GUI or workflow or "size" is wrong. In reality, they're all right... and alright.

Almost as (if not more) important than the questions directed at a product would be those questions pertaining to a user's need in advance of which product would best serve that user.

That is to suggest that it's important for the user to narrow down why they themselves might have narrowed down their picks between Wallander and VSL. I mean, they are SO different from each other.

Was it the mp3s demos?

The real problem with this is that they are both great for what they were intended to do--- and NOT for what every user assumes they will do for them.

[Shooshie]

The whole question is very much like players who are learning the saxophone, and who want to get the jump on their competition by getting the best horn. "What is the best sax?" was a question I used to hear all the time. Well, if repair and natural intonation are not factors, the best sax is always the one you're most accustomed to. You learn to adjust for all its idiosyncrasies, and you learn to play it in tune.

Someone says "yeah, but I don't want to fool with all that. Which one just plays in tune???" The answer is "none."

Yep, there comes a point when you just have to do the work.

Shooshie

[Frodo]

Yep, there comes a point when you just have to do the work.

DAG NABBIT--- HOW AWFUL!!

[Shooshie]

Or… you could come here and write long posts about the work you SHOULD be doing!
(I still get it done… I just don't sleep!)

[Mr_Clifford]

Thanks a lot Shooshie for the lightning fast response with the demos. I look forward to having a good listen to them over the next couple of days.

[dcoscina]

I own Dimension Brass also although I've barely used it thus far. Been using Symphobia 2 more for it's 8 horns. But I do like VSL and will get around to using thus library.

[westlake79]

I am a big supporter of the WIVI product line. Musically, there is something enormously satisfying about not having to program each note. If you get it I would highly recommend a Yamaha BC3 breath controller. It's an absolute revolution for me mock-up wise.

Demos:

Exclusively WIVI Brass and Winds...

http://soundcloud.com/gitaur/pew-pew-pew" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exclusive WIVI Winds with WIVI Brass, Symphobia Brass, and staccato Tuba from East West.

http://soundcloud.com/gitaur/despicable ... ovie-alert" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Shooshie]

Big grin!

That was great, Chris! And that's exactly what I've been talking about. I've been recording with these things for a while, and there's just nothing like them. What many people may fail to grasp is that what you did there didn't require any "articulations." No special samples for "loud," and no sampled runs… you just play it like you would the actual instruments.

Thanks for the brilliant examples!

Shooshie
PS: What strings are you using? I use VSL. They're very nice, but I can barely tolerate all the trouble it takes to get a decent performance out of them.