VSL Dimension Brass or Wallander Instruments?

[hrw]

I am a big supporter of the WIVI product line. Musically, there is something enormously satisfying about not having to program each note. If you get it I would highly recommend a Yamaha BC3 breath controller. It's an absolute revolution for me mock-up wise.

Demos:

Exclusively WIVI Brass and Winds...

http://soundcloud.com/gitaur/pew-pew-pew" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exclusive WIVI Winds with WIVI Brass, Symphobia Brass, and staccato Tuba from East West.

http://soundcloud.com/gitaur/despicable ... ovie-alert" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i also heard Dr. Jones Clone, nice work! What was the brass on that track, Wivi?

[Shooshie]

Since the BC3 has come up, one might check out Amazon for a good price. Also, if your keyboard does not have a BC (Breath Control) input, you can get a box from MIDI Solutions that will do the conversion to MIDI. It actually costs more than the BC3 itself, but there is a good price on the bundle of the two of them at Amazon.

Shooshie

Edit: Oops… I just realized I already spoke at leeenggth about this in this very thread, back on page one. Sorry for repeating myself. Since it's already here, though, I figured I might as well paste in the link:

MIDI Solutions BC Converter and Yamaha BC3 breath control headset at Amazon.com

[mhschmieder]

Still wondering how long before the alternate wooden breath controller (way more expressive in its design than BC3a) will finally come out, after being announced by vi-control two years ago!

How do you get Soundcloud to work? This is the second time this week someone has linked to a Soundcloud clip, and though it doesn't show an error message, it won't play.

[Rubens]

Hi guys!

For those like me whom uses Notion 3 as a way to export audio files to DP, so all the material in only wrote and not played, do you think Wallander Instruments could be the best choice too?

Thank you,

Rubens.

[hrw]

I am a big supporter of the WIVI product line. Musically, there is something enormously satisfying about not having to program each note. If you get it I would highly recommend a Yamaha BC3 breath controller. It's an absolute revolution for me mock-up wise.

Demos:

Exclusively WIVI Brass and Winds...

http://soundcloud.com/gitaur/pew-pew-pew" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exclusive WIVI Winds with WIVI Brass, Symphobia Brass, and staccato Tuba from East West.

http://soundcloud.com/gitaur/despicable ... ovie-alert" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds great!

[malditoyanki]

Damn....this thread is back from the dead! (see what I did there?)

After using WIVI for 6 months here are my uninvited thoughts:

Bad:
Not much. However, the bones lack beef especially for staccato passages. That's what symphobia is for I guess. Oddly, the trumpets staccato are very punchy. They are luscious in a legato setting especially with close voicings (which is also true for real bones BTW.)

Good:
Oh where to start...Euphonium!!! It's amazing and I love rocking the Euphs for more plaintive warm sounds. The musicality is unparalleled. I feel like a musician playing these even with the keyboard. The reverb is outrageously awesome....fully half the reason they sound so good is the trumpets sound just like they're to the upper right behind the the cellos (or wherever you want them, you can put them in the balcony if you like.)

[Shooshie]

Ah… another satisfied WIVI customer!

Have you played with the envelopes and formants of the bones? You might get more satisfaction out of that. Also, the falloff control -- the one that shows the graphic of the trumpet bell with sound coming out of it? You might play with decreasing falloff so that the sound fills up the cone coming out of the bell. That may fatten up the staccatos, but I'm not sure it'll give you what you want. I find that just playing with things usually leads me to a successful sound.

One other thing that may be a long shot: be sure that the bones are coming out of the main outs. In the acoustics side of the interface, there are controls for putting direct sound, early reflections, and late reverb on different channels. I struggled with a sound for days before realizing that the direct sound was on a stereo pair that were not even connected.

WIVI is amazing, but it comes at the price of complexity. Most of the defaults are good without going into the complex controls, but when you need something special, usually you'll find it somewhere in there.

My only problem with WIVI is the flute. I just can't get a flute out of it that I really like.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

I might be interested in the bones as well, as I am having trouble taming the splatty nature of the SampleModeling bones, and also find that the slide aspect, doits, etc., are not as well implemented (or maybe not as well documented) as for The Trumpet.

I suppose I could try using a de-esser on the bones. Maybe I'll try that tonight. I didn't realize the bones were considered strong suits of WIVI.

[jloeb]

I'd like to throw Cinebrass into the mix here if I may...

Anyone own and/or have any opinions on it yet? Is it in the same league as these products? Can it function in broader classical terms, or is it locked into a hollywood-strident sound?

I've heard all the demos but am still left curious about it. It's certainly a bit cheaper, would fit into the Kontakt workflow I already have set up for LASS, (and was also recorded right in LA). But I'll need good detailed quiet dynamics and the capacity to go concert hall prim & proper sometimes.

EDIT: This thread is what I was looking for. Now wondering what Cinebrass "Pro" will include, though. Decisions, decisions...

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =cinebrass" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bkkjohn]

After reading this thread, I purchased the Wallander woodwinds several months ago. I use it with *******, and all the parts are programmed in, not played live. I thought it was great for all the reasons to prefer a modelled instruments (like dynamic timbral response), but that the instruments sounded a little fake - too smooth and perfect. The contrabassoon has a prominent harmonic (12th?) on every note. And when playing really fast notes, the notes didn't flow together. And using Oscillator #2 for flutter-tonguing is pretty unconvincing.

Then I bought the Pro player, which allows access to all the parameters that are "hidden" with the free version. With this, I was able to fix most of the shortcomings and get much better sounds. But it's a lot of tweaking!

One thing I've still NOT gotten to sound right is flutter-tonguing. I've read that it's best done with a wind controller. I wonder if someone could publish a controller data file so it could be emulated.

I mention this because I've been looking for a new brass library, and considering WIVI brass vs. Sample Modeling vs. VSL Dimension Brass. Because of the way I write, I need several independent horn, trumpet and trombone instruments (to avoid phasing during occasional unisons). VSL Dimension Brass seems like it's still only half a library (no mutes), along with all the problems inherent in every sample library. Yet, I still find that WIVI seems to be missing some of the "life" of a natural instrument, and when combined with samples (i.e VSL Dimension Strings), this stands out. Any help/comments are appreciated!

John Melcher

[Shooshie]

First of all, I'm not sure it's possible to get "realism" in a virtual instrument without a MIDI Wind Controller. I hear some pretty good renditions on keyboard, but they've been tweaked relentessly. The Yamaha WX-5 simply adds some life and variation that's sorely needed to sound believable. Even an inferior sound can suspend disbelief when played on a WX-5, but obviously the better sound you start with, the better job you can do even with that instrument.

The main instrument that I cannot abide in Wallander is the flute, but I learned that if I use his built-in vibrato, rather than trying to do my own with lip/jaw movement, as on saxophone, it sounds much better. Still, it's just not a convincing flute sound. I get much better flute even from some of the cheap libraries.

Over the past year or two, I've grown more fond of VSL, specifically the Vienna Instruments Pro — Advanced interface. And some of their libraries have really raised the bar over the past few years. The Dimension Strings library, for example, is hard to beat. I've gotten better at setting velocity crossfades and other settings to get better playing sounds, so that performance-wise they almost match Wallander, but sound-wise they are far superior. If I could have Wallander's interface with VSL's sounds, it would be a perfect virtual world. But as VSL has improved its interface, it has risen to become my favored VI for all things.

Keep in mind that Wallander is more than 7 years old now, and the basic sounds have not changed during that time. My enthusiasm about it all those years ago was genuine, but other libraries have simply gained on it and surpassed it in timbre and sound quality. It remains the most playable, IMO, on a MIDI Wind Instrument, but others have made gains there, too. I'm pretty happy with VSL these days, and while I still have Wallander V-Racks and still use them especially in ensemble woodwinds and brass, when I want the sound to stand out I use VSL.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

PS:

I fixed the links in this old post on the preceding page:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 19#p383019

Since this thread was written, Apple closed their dotMac service, which orphaned all my online links. I repair them when I see them, which is seldom. Since you resurrected this thread, I was able to go in and fix the links to the musical examples in WIVI.

Shooshie

[minimidi]

One thing I've still NOT gotten to sound right is flutter-tonguing. I've read that it's best done with a wind controller. I wonder if someone could publish a controller data file so it could be emulated.

Check out this video. He does amazing flutter tonguing with a breath controller, starting at around 1m30s. Maybe you can ask him to send the file...

[bkkjohn]

Thanks for your reply. I worry a bit that Wallender doesn't seem to be updating. I had once set my hopes on Synful Orchestra, but then they apparently folded up and disappeared. And I keep hearing that Sample Modeling instruments are too pop-oriented.

The difficulty lies in the nature of my writing. Whereas most sample libraries seem geared for simpler, "Hollywood-style" work, say a trumpet section playing in unison, a solo line or chords, I often have 3 separate parts, with occasional unisons. With samples, this leads either to ugly collisions of the same sample on 2 or 3 parts, or resorting to a 2- and 3-trumpet ensemble samples for a few notes. The VSL Dimension Strings mostly solved my problem for strings (though running 48+ separate string tracks definitely eats into CPU usage).

Unfortunately, the Dimension Brass seems like only half a library. Aside with the usual problems of sample, mainly dynamics, there are no mute samples, and they're certainly not going to release all articulations with 5 kinds of mute (though a "mute plugin" for their player might solve that).

Thanks for the flutter-tonguing link. I assumed it was NOT done with the second modulation oscillator, but by changing volume and timbre in real time - though I haven't been able to figure out the wavefor needed for a realistic effect.

John

[mhschmieder]

I use Sample Modeling for everything but classical. I have the entire VSL collection and most of Spitfire's and use those for classical stuff (with occasional other one-off sources).

I haven't had time to dig into the Dimension series yet, unfortunately. HUGE learning curve involved, but there are tutorials, thankfully. I've tried them a few times and just don't get it yet. I fear it's going to slow down rather than speed up work, but the point is to get more realistic renderings and that means effort on our parts as well as work on the vendor's side.

Wallander is still alive as far as I can tell. Who knows what the future will bring? I never upgraded to a full set; I think I only have the saxes. I just haven't been motivated to do that yet, as I'm getting better and better results out of my VSL Woodwinds, which really are the star of the show when it comes to VSL (some, but not all, of the strings would be next, along with the oddball stuff, percussion, harp, and a good percentage of the brass).

With VSL you often need the later stuff as he early stuff is focused on instrument variants that aren't used so widely outside of Vienna so tend to be a bit unexpected to our ears.

They have a great sale right now, but it might end this weekend; I forget. I used it to upgrade to the new solo voices and the Bb Muted Trumpet, for practically nothing due to the loyalty discounts as they now apply to the overall collections. A cascading collection set at this point; a new concept added in December. Makes it far easier to afford different upgrade paths.