VSL Dimension Brass or Wallander Instruments?

[Shooshie]

That's a good video, and great examples of what can be done with a library dedicated to performing wind instruments. The flute is 2nd to none that I've heard, and I may buy it JUST for the flute.

Wallander's instruments still work well, but adjusting them to get the most out of them has really gotten boring. There is always some little niggling detail I am either trying to get or trying to remove, and that tries my patience. If I can get this kind of performance from Sample Modeling, I may start collecting some of their instruments.

As for flutter tonguing, it's a low-level trick that works on the WX-5 or any other breath controller, as far as I know. No other controllers are necessary, though you can change the timbre with a mod wheel or pedal, and that can add to the effect. I've used it since I started on the WX-7 back in about 1987. Growling is another trick that actually produces results. You sing at a lower pitch than you're playing, and the interference between the two produces an effect in the final audio. It's not exactly the same effect as growling through a real instrument, but it can be worth using. The transducers that pick up wind pressure are quite accurate and fast enough to respond to such changes.

I'd still buy Wallander just to have everything. But at this point the cash outlay for the whole thing (plus the advanced interface) would worry me. So, let me rephrase it; if you can afford to have it and use it until he stops updating it, it's still worth it. If you can only invest in one library, find something newer. But to this day, the things I can do in Wallander continue to amaze me.

Sample Modeling is reaching the point of diversity that I'm starting to get interested in their stuff. I'll have to try it to see if I can tweak the sounds to be what I want them to be. Most libraries are pretty limited in sound tweaks, and going from Jazz to rock to classical is nearly impossible. Either they're designed for one or the other. Wallander allowed you to literally play any style by tweaking formants, harmonics, air, attacks, and such. It's already around 8 or 9 years old, and the interface and instruments have been modified several times. If he releases another version the next time that an OS X update causes it to fail, It should be good for at least another 5 years. Who can see beyond that in this business?

Shooshie

[minimidi]

That's a good video, and great examples of what can be done with a library dedicated to performing wind instruments. The flute is 2nd to none that I've heard, and I may buy it JUST for the flute.

Here's another interesting one...

[frankymax]

Just to add my two cents to this thread, I recently decided it was time to update my orchestral sounds and get some of the newer libraries. Being a woodwind player and having a WX7 I thought I'd get the full Wallandar set as I had always heard they were good (esp. from Shooshie). I can report that in my opinion they are GREAT! Using them with a wind controller has added so much more life and realism to my brass sounds. I also have the Cinebrass collection and the VSL Special Edition but the Wallandar sounds are working really great and as an added bonus they don't take a huge CPU hit, which is great. The dynamics and timbre changes seem really good to me. I've got three instanciations of Wallandar on my template now: one of just woodwind sections, one of brass sections, and one with solo instruments that I have tweaked for BC functions (thanks again to Shooshie for his great insights on setting that up!) The stage panning and set up is wonderful too. I really hope he comes out with a string library at some point.

Someone mentioned Synful Orchestra earlier- I recently emailed him asking what was up with his library (since I've moved from Mac to Windows 7 64 bit Synful no longer works) and he replied to tell me he's working on a 64 bit update which will be compatible with Win7 & higher. I hope he follows thru- I really liked those Synful sounds and have been sad not to use them in quite a while.

[Shooshie]

Just to add my two cents to this thread, I recently decided it was time to update my orchestral sounds and get some of the newer libraries. Being a woodwind player and having a WX7 I thought I'd get the full Wallandar set as I had always heard they were good (esp. from Shooshie). I can report that in my opinion they are GREAT!

So glad you got Wallander, Franky! I love seeing the right tools get to the right people.

Shooshie

[bkkjohn]

Sometimes just writing it all down clarifies a problem. For what I do, modeled instruments are the only realistic choice; Dimension Brass just doesn't do the job. So I bought the Wallander brass library and think it's nearly perfect. The French horns seem a little aggressive, but a few tweaks quickly fixes it. Trumpets, trombones and tuba work right out of the box. This is a different experience than the woodwind library, which I'm still working on, especially the saxes.

The Dimension Strings can be difficult, because it's hard to get the right ensemble levels with 12-16 solo violin tracks. I tend to make them too loud and then readjust velocity levels several times.

[frankymax]

Yeah this stuff really takes time to tweak - personally, I hate all sampled saxes!- being a sax player there's not one sax sample out there that I feel can replace what I can do naturally. There's just too much "stuff" going on in sax performance- between bending, timbral changes, tonguing,glisses and nuances from note to note, especially on jazz and ad-lib style solos. I guess the same could be said for brass and other woodwinds but I really feel jazz sax is best left to a real player!!

[HCMarkus]

I really feel jazz sax is best left to a real player!!

+mucho

I do like the Wallander Brass a lot.

[Shooshie]

I'd go so far as to say there can never be a sampled sax that works in more than a VERY NARROW range of applications. I'm also a sax player, and I can't get anything like what I want, but I've found that with Wallander's saxes, I can get close.

I dial back the formants by about -2, if I remember correctly. (Or it may be +2; it's been a long time since I made it, and I just keep reusing it) Then I do the rest with EQ, some within Wallander and some outside of it. Also, you have to try each one of the saxes (and all the instruments). Each is a different sound. There may be other tweaks that I did for the saxes I was trying to create; It's been a long time. (They're still working great. I just load 'em up.)

But when I want a REAL sax sound, I just slap on a reed, stand in front of a U87 and record it myself.

Shooshie

[frankymax]

But when I want a REAL sax sound, I just slap on a reed, stand in front of a U87 and record it myself.

Shooshie

Exactly!!!

[mhschmieder]

Due to a short-term sale and coupon, I bought WIVI Band yesterday from Best Service, feeling the price was right (after the huge markdown) for getting a feel for these instruments and whether I want to invest in the full library.

I bought the saxophones years ago, but was disappointed in them. I am especially curious to try the muted brass, as I have only made gradual progress with Sample Modeling and still don't have the right timbre even when I get closer to the articulation and phrasing that I want.

Hopefully I'll get around to that comparison tonight, but the reason I'm writing now is that I wanted to make sure people know that the WIVI Band purchase only has a very mild impact on your customer loyalty upgrade path to the full libraries -- wish I'd known that in advance.

Oh well; maybe I'll find the WIVI Band interface easy and quick enough to work with that it's worth having on its own. And on that note, I should mention that your other WIVI purchases show up as available within the WIVI Band interface.

Somewhat more recently, WIVI added a product called NotePerformer for Sibelius. Based on the description, it seems they MIGHT be using that semi-abandoned phrase-based sampling approach from Synful Orchestra (which I evaluated deeply several times).

At any rate, I am extremely impressed by the audio demos and comparisons, and may consider it if I ever do the Sibelius cross-grade as it could be a time-saver in the early phases of mock-up due to realistic phrasing and articulation-switching (sort of like Sample Modeling).

One thing I frequently note with different libraries and approaches to sound recreation, is that many that do well with legato phrases fall down completely once fast passages are thrown at it, or much in the way of jazz/swing-style rhythms.

I rarely write music with legato -- in fact, I go out of my way to avoid it. I think I'm just overly tired of the modern Hollywood approach. But I do have some Wagner-inspired pieces that I am building up over time for a first opera, if I ever get around to it. At any rate, I often find it humerous how most people's evaluations fall down on legato, whereas I am rarely impressed by the portato or detache!

[bkkjohn]

Since I posted my question, I have moved more toward modelled instruments exclusively. They may not produce exactly the right waveform, but the control over dynamics and other variables in a real sound gives them a special realism. I have VSL Dimension Strings, which is okay (no good modelled strings yet), but never got the Dimension Brass. Even if you buy the full set, you get one mute. Wallender has 6 or 7. As a test, I rendered the opening fanfare from Janacek's Sinfonietta, which requires instruments not available with the VSL library.

[Shooshie]

Wallander would be useless to me without the advanced interface, and that costs quite a lot. But it's what makes instruments like the saxophones GREAT! That's the double-edged sword of Wallander Instruments: they give you the ability to come up with the instruments of your dreams, but you have to figure out how to do it, and without the advanced WIVI interface, you can't even blow your nose.

The only instrument I haven't been able to conquer in Wallander is the flute. I've bought SampleModeling's The Flutes, so I'm covered, I think, but all the rest of the instruments are pretty much where I want them in Wallander.

Now, I have to qualify my statements: it took me years to come up with the saxophones that I like. I was getting close, but there were small things that eluded me. For example, there was a barely-audible thump, pop, or whatever you want to call it between notes in a legato passage. I finally found the key to that only about 2 years ago.

So, yes, you can get what you want out of Wallander, but it's a lot of work to get there. (be sure to save them as you master the sounds, because you WILL forget how you got them.) When I tell someone that Wallander is great, they go buy the cheapest version of it, and they are ALWAYS disappointed, because you can't get jacksh*t out of that. I'm afraid that it's all or nothing. On top of that, even with the big WIVI interface, you can't just call one up out of the box and use it. You have to set it up to respond for you.

Now... Mark mentioned that he doesn't like legato, and that's fine for him, but if your instrument won't do EVERYTHING, it's not a full musical instrument. Legato has to sound like the legato of the instrument in question, just as staccato or any other style. And no two instruments do it the same way, exactly. That's why Wallander is so perfect for perfectionists: it has the tools to alter anything in the sound.

SampleModeling is putting a lot of adjustments in their instruments, too, and that's great. I've really used those. But that's a fraction of what Wallander does. It would probably be a good idea to program instruments in Wallander and sell them to Wallander owners. Of course, they'd still have to buy the advanced interface, just to load them; at least, I think that's the case. Maybe not. Hey... maybe this is a new cottage industry, waiting to happen!

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

After the above response, I realized that this is a very old thread, and that some of my earlier responses go back to 2011. I posted a number of examples of Wallander and other libraries. Those sound so bad to me now, since I've overcome most of the problems in them since then. Again, without the advanced WIVI interface, I'd be using something else.

To the uninitiated, the full set of Wallander Instruments comes in three basic packages:

• Professional Edition Player:
  • Price: $379 (Optional)
    This is what I was calling the "Advanced Interface"
• WIVI Brass:
  • Price: $399
    Instruments
    • French Horns
      No mute, Stopped, Straight mute.
    • Vienna Horns
    • Wagner Tubas
    • Piccolo Trumpets
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • D-Trumpets
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • C-Trumpets
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Bb-Trumpets
      No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute, Solotone mute, Harmon mute (no stem, inserted & extended), Plunger mute.
    • Bass Trumpets
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Contrabass Trumpets
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Alto Trombones
      No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute.
    • Tenor Trombones
      No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute, Harmon mute (no stem, inserted & extended), Plunger mute.
    • Bass Trombones
      No mute, Straight mute, Cup mute, Bucket mute, Harmon mute (no stem), Plunger mute.
    • Cimbassos
    • F-Tubas
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Contrabass Tubas
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Soprano Cornets
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Cornets
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Flugelhorns
    • Alto Horns
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Baritone Horns
      No mute, Straight mute.
    • Euphoniums
      No mute, Straight mute.
• WIVI Woodwinds and Saxes
  • Price: $329
    Instruments
    • Piccolo Flutes
      Concert Flutes
      Alto Flutes
      Bass Flutes
      Modern Oboes
      Baroque Oboes
      Oboe d’Amore
      English Horns
      Eb-Clarinets
      Bb-Clarinets
      A-Clarinets
      Basset Horns
      Bass Clarinets
      Contrabass Clarinets
      Modern Bassoons
      Classical Bassoons
      Baroque Bassoons
      Contrabassoons
      Sopranino Saxophones
      Soprano Saxophones
      Alto Saxophones
      Tenor Saxophones
      Baritone Saxophones
      Bass Saxophones
      C Soprano Saxophones
      Mezzo-soprano Saxophones
      C Melody Saxophones
      Garklein Recorders
      Sopranino Recorders
      Soprano Recorders
      Alto Recorders
      Tenor Recorders
      Bass Recorders
      Great Bass Recorders
      Contrabass Recorders

Total: $1,107

It's a lot to bite off, and I don't recommend it for casual users. If you are serious about this stuff, and if it's important to you to put in the time to figure out the best instruments you can set up, then I would say it's worth trying this. Yes, $1107 is a lot to gamble, but ALL these libraries are a gamble. This one pays off more than most. I have not used every instrument; it's possible that the one instrument you're depending on really sucks! But the instruments I've used have been able to make believable performances. I've used Wallander on at least one Grammy nominated album, and it sounded, well... real. Nobody has complained, anyway.

Shoosh

[Shooshie]

Sorry for the serial posting here, but I was trying to think of the Wallander instruments that I've been able to use with zero or very little tweaking. The following list could be used right out of the box, I think:
Trumpets
Cornets
Horns
Wagner tubas
Tuba
Trombones

Oboes
Clarinets

• The bassoons, to my ear, required a little formant tweaking, but were mostly believable after that. I have sometimes used VSL bassoons instead.
• Saxes require much tweaking of nearly every attribute. Saxes are very misunderstood instruments, and VI makers fail to realize that the sax sounds they want to model are themselves very tweaked with low-baffle mouthpieces with open facings and soft reeds. They should make the basic sax sound, which is nothing like what you would hear on a jazz or pop record. From there, let the user tweak the sound. They would get far better results that way, than having to backtrack from a highly tweaked sound to change it to something that can be played in most circumstances. Anyway, for saxes I moved the formant a couple notches (really, no more than 2 or 3), but I don't remember whether it was + or -. Then I EQ'd out the highs to bring it back to a working sax sound.

• The worst WIVI instrument, IMO, is the flute. It simply misses the core sound. Flutes are deceptive. They aren't really sine waves, as many think. I would describe them as "hollow triangle waves." That is, sawtooths with the center EQ'd out. Maybe a sine with a sawtooth overtone. But nothing I can say will exactly nail a flute sound. When adjusting the formants on Wallander's flutes, I find either way I go is the wrong way, so I think he just got the core wrong. Fortunately, SampleModeling gives us the way out of that one.

Sorry for the treatise on sample-modeled instruments. This is sort of a life-long crusade of mine, and we're seeing some genuinely great choices these days.

If I were starting right now, in July, 2016, I'd put my money into Wallander (yes, still) and/or SampleModeling, with a broad selection of VSL strings, especially the Dimension Strings. A good general library from VSL is also recommended. Sometimes you have to use their bassoons and flutes and what-have-you. There are probably other choices, but I can't try them all. These are the ones I would recommend.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

Shooshie, I think your lists and posts clear up some things, and definitely I wasted money on WIVI Band as it has no parameter tweaking whatsoever and I'm not seeing its instruments show up in the regular WIVI -- nor do I know how to tell whether I have Standard or Deluxe for the WIVI engine.

My loyalty discounts are weird. Ownership of Saxophones gives me the possibility of upgrading to full Winds Deluxe for less than $250 (I'm doing this from memory), but buying Band only lowered my cost for Brass by about $20 to roughly $350, and they list it as Standard vs. Deluxe so I don't know whether I'd have to pay up again or whether buying Winds Deluxe lets Brass inherit that license?

This is one of the reasons I waited so long to dig deeper into their products; I can't figure out the product structure and upgrades. So that made it hard to decide which risk to take first. I decided on Band because my own price was roughly $20 if you pretend all of my discounts only applied to the other product I had in the cart at the same time. Maybe that explains my Brass discount.

Anyway, I am so far more impressed by the raw timbre of the brass than the winds, but it seems wiser to upgrade the winds first as it's cheaper for me, gets me to Deluxe status, and MIGHT have a further impact on my Brass price OR allow a Brass purchase to go straight to Deluxe vs. Standard.