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MIDI problem using the wiper

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MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby KenNickels » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:50 am

When two MIDI notes of the same pitch are back to back, quantized and butted against each other, the second note does not sound. This doesn't happen when the transport is running, only when editing with the wiper. Does anyone know why or found a workaround? I mean besides shortening the first note? Thanks.
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:12 am

Shortening the note is the inly thing I can think of, but it is odd. I seem to recall an edit feature to fix this en masse. If I can find it I'll repost. I wonder if you change the tick resolution (or whatever that's called) if it might help?
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:17 am

I just tried this and got the notes as close as possible and I am not seeing it (I was using an external MIDI device). So that begs the question: is it in all VIs and MIDI devices; or just one or two?
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby buzzsmith » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:24 am

Not sure if this helps, but some VIs will not sound the second same note if they're "touching" each other. LASS is one. But it doesn't matter, in my case, if editing with the wiper or transport.

If they're touching, the second note will not sound.

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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby cuttime » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:54 am

Regions>Change Durations
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby KenNickels » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:11 pm

Thanks for the change duration. I'll keep that in mind.

Both Kontakt and Play have this problem. My external Kurzweil doesn't. I guess it's just the nature of the beast. I changed the resolution to 192 and that didn't work either. When I changed it back to 480 DP crashed.

Since I use input quantize most of the time, I'll try it without "duration" from now on.
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby stubbsonic » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:30 pm

I'm in DP 8.07 and I am seeing the same issue with Pianoteq and some other VI's.

This WAS an issue with playback, but DP fixed it. However, they apparently didn't address the same issue with scrubbing.

The situation was if you quantized consecutive notes OF THE SAME PITCH, with both attacks and releases checked, DP would put the release and the attacks together. This caused some VI's to read the attack of the second of two adjacent notes first, the read the release of the first note right after that, resulting in a short note instead of the full value-- or in some cases, a note not sounding at all depending on the quality of the sound.

One thing you can also try that is pretty painless, is to put a MIDI insert plugin on the track to change duration, then SUBTRACT 0|001 (one tick) from all durations. This appears to fix it even with scrubbing on my system. Then you can option drag the insert to all tracks, and you can put this in your templates.

Of course, MOTU could work it so DP simply shifts releases one tick earlier when it quantizes releases.
Last edited by stubbsonic on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby frankf » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:41 pm

You can easily automate a change duration command such as shortening a MIDI note by 1 tick as suggested above with a Marco program such as Keyboard Maestro. Assign it to a key or key combination, a text string or a MIDI note. You can even make a palate appear with options for shortening by 1,2,3, etc. ticks


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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby KenNickels » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:20 pm

Thanks, stubbsonic, your suggestions were successful!

I'm curious, Frankf, what other things do you do with keyboard maestro? I might look into something like that.
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby stubbsonic » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:51 am

I'm working on a big orchestration project, and am using DP for the parts-entry phase. I quantize note ends to streamline the correct notation duration process.

Despite what I said in a previous post, this problem still exits when using the wiper. And one of the features I like to use is to hear MIDI notes play back when I'm moving the wiper.

Inserting the change duration plugin to subtract 4-5 ticks only works now for playback not for the wiper.

Really, MOTU's choice to have a note-off on a particular clock play AFTER a note-on on the same clock is just wrong. They did fix it for playback, but should also fix it in the wiper.

Did they fix this in any of the v9 updates?
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby bayswater » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:42 am

stubbsonic wrote:I'm working on a big orchestration project, and am using DP for the parts-entry phase. I quantize note ends to streamline the correct notation duration process.

Despite what I said in a previous post, this problem still exits when using the wiper. And one of the features I like to use is to hear MIDI notes play back when I'm moving the wiper.

Inserting the change duration plugin to subtract 4-5 ticks only works now for playback not for the wiper.

Really, MOTU's choice to have a note-off on a particular clock play AFTER a note-on on the same clock is just wrong. They did fix it for playback, but should also fix it in the wiper.

Did they fix this in any of the v9 updates?


I thought it had all been fixed too, so tried it out. With overlapping notes on the same pitch, it all worked with normal playback, notes were triggered properly. But with the wiper, some notes triggered and others didn't. Sometimes it was inconsistent for a specific note. With Note on and Note off at the same point, same thing. In any case, using Change Duration with Move Releases to Closest Attack worked with the wiper. I got into the habit of doing this globally when note on off priority was not working properly.
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby stubbsonic » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:59 am

bayswater wrote:
... With overlapping notes on the same pitch, it all worked with normal playback, notes were triggered properly. But with the wiper, some notes triggered and others didn't. Sometimes it was inconsistent for a specific note. With Note on and Note off at the same point, same thing. In any case, using Change Duration with Move Releases to Closest Attack worked with the wiper. I got into the habit of doing this globally when note on off priority was not working properly.


With overlapping notes, DP is behaving "obediently" in that it is playing the MIDI data in proper order. But when notes have been quantized with note ends and note starts on the same tick, DP SHOULD prioritize Note-Offs, so a new note-on happens after the previous note-off is received.

Pianoteq has a MIDI monitor. During playback it shows:

Note on
Note off
Note on
Note off

During wiper/scrubbing the same two notes it shows:
Note on
Note on
Note off
Note off

DP ignores quantize & duration plugins during wiper operations.

I'm wondering if someone could confirm whether this issue is fixed in DP9? I might start a support ticket.
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby stubbsonic » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:16 pm

I just tested with the demo of 9, and the problem still exists there, too.

Since this is a feature I rely on, I'm going to request it as a bug fix. I'd appreciate it if others would, as well-- if you notice it and use MIDI scrubbing.
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby stubbsonic » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:33 pm

Here's a video demonstration of the issue.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com/misc/wiperbug.mov

I'm scrubbing across 4 quarter notes each of a kontakt sound, and a pianoteq sound. Then I quantize attacks & releases to quarter notes, and scrub again with the wiper. I put Pianoteq's event monitor on the lower part of the screen. You'll see and hear that when wiping DP sends:

1st-Note-ON, 2nd-Note-ON, 1st-Note-OFF (which instantly kills the 2nd note), 3rd-Note-ON, 2nd-Note-OFF (which immediately stops the third note), 4th-Note-ON, 3rd-Note-OFF (which stops the third note short), and then lastly the 4th-note-OFF which does nothing (because it's note was already killed immediately after it started by the 3rd-Note's release).
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Re: MIDI problem using the wiper

Postby supersonic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:37 am

I have known that behaviour for long time now. My solution was to shorten all notes ever so slightly which would make them all sound again. At some point during my usage of DP9 i realized this was no longer an issue but alas not always.
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