Motu 828es crackling noise

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Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. for Mac OSX
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Julian_Gregor
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Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by Julian_Gregor »

Any advice how this could be solved?

I run a motu 828es via USB on a macbook pro 2010 with Yosemite.

The project i use it for requires low latency since theres tracks going through ableton live and use live effects and looper.
Until now i used a Focusrite saffire pro 40 (firewire) and also a motu 828mk3 (also firewire) both worked fine with a puffer of 64 samples (unless cpu didn’t make it of course, but we managed to avoid this)

I really looked forward using the new 828es with the web control app and the advanced routing but unfortunately:
There’s a crackling noise whenever something is playing back and latency is at 64 samples. 128 samples is better, but the noises sometimes (at least once in 5 seconds) still occur.
This even happens when just one wav file is playing at 44,1khz.
It gets much worse when the mouse is moved around in the routing tap of the web app. It also gets worse when turning the wheels and browsing through the interface menu on the interface hardware.
The noise will only stop at a buffer size of 512 samples or higher, but we can’t use this when playing live.

Compared to the 828mk3 where the playback of one audio track works fine even at a puffersize as low as 32 samples.

Theres no noise when playing through the interface with direct monitoring, only audio playback or software instruments cause it.


I’ve tried:
exchanging the USB cable
Switching to a different USB port
turning of as much running processes as possible
switching it off and on;)
changing sample rate

I plan trying it on a newer Macbook with Thunderbolt asap.
Maybe this will help. Is USB 2.0 in general much worse than firewire? I thought these issues have been solved? Could it be a driver problem?
If it doesn't work out i gotta return it. (and spend more money on a RME or something like that;)

Thanks for any help!

My current configuration:
Macbook pro Mid 2010
Yosemite
2,53 GHz Intel Core i5
8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3
SSD drive
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HCMarkus
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Re: Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by HCMarkus »

I'd call MOTU on this. Hope you get it sorted; I have an 828es coming in a few days.

One thing: did you install the MOTU driver? Although the 828es is USB "Class Compliant" so driver software is not required under macOS, the documentation suggests that the MOTU Pro Audio driver software may improve things:
On Mac OS and Windows, the MOTU Pro Audio driver provides exceptionally low I/O latency performance for both Thunderbolt and USB operation.
HC Markus
M1 Mac Studio Ultra • 64GB RAM • 828es • macOS 13.6.4 • DP 11.31
Julian_Gregor
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Re: Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by Julian_Gregor »

HCMarkus wrote: One thing: did you install the MOTU driver? Although the 828es is USB "Class Compliant" so driver software is not required under macOS, the documentation suggests that the MOTU Pro Audio driver software may improve things:
Yes, I installed the Motu driver for the 828es.
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HCMarkus
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Re: Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by HCMarkus »

Found this:

https://www.ableton.com/answers/live-9- ... -interface

Although it doesn't negate the fact that your prior Firewire interface seemed to handle your workload well, reading thru the thread, indications are that many have had issues with Live9.

Also found this link interesting:

http://cdm.link/2016/12/45016/

MOTU's Jim Cooper advises (emphasis added):
It depends on the machine and the software being used. Let’s assume most people have a decent, healthy computer and that we’re talking about USB.

For latency performance, we expect both platforms to perform well. Both should be able to do under 3 ms patch-thru or better. That’s like having your head about three feet further from an audio source.

For CPU performance, it’s mostly negligible on both platforms. The lower your buffer size, the more CPU we use, which has always been the case. In windows this is generally more true, so there will be a minor difference between platforms.

We want to mention that when connected via Thunderbolt, performance is a little better (for both Mac and Windows). Thunderbolt is also slightly more efficient with regard to CPU usage. But the main point is, with these new drivers, USB holds up remarkably well in comparison to Thunderbolt, given common industry perceptions.
Encouraging words. But will actual performance confirm or disappoint? The PCIe interface (similar to TB) has always been considered more efficient than either USB or Firewire.

I'll be experimenting soon, comparing the performance of the 828es USB and 828mkII Firewire on my hex core Mac Pro, and will report my findings back here.
HC Markus
M1 Mac Studio Ultra • 64GB RAM • 828es • macOS 13.6.4 • DP 11.31
Julian_Gregor
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Re: Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by Julian_Gregor »

Yes, i've already read these two.
Thats true, the first one doesn't explain why it works with the (much older) firewire interfaces.
About Thunderbolt being faster than USB: That's a fact i think, but its not like I'm trying to push 30+ audiotracks through the USB connection. It should at least be able to manage two tracks;)

I'm afraid that the USB driver is just not working good enough (yet). The drivers for the older interfaces have had more time for all the issues to be sorted out.
But I don't know whether i can rely on motu to fix that in the near future.

It would be really cool though if you could report whether this is working in your setup!
Thank you!
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HCMarkus
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Re: Motu 828es NO crackling noise under DP/USB

Post by HCMarkus »

Just took delivery of a brand spankin' new 828es this evening. Brief testing yielded very positive results... Impressive setup routine and solid hardware and software, at least so far.

CPU load running USB appears identical with my 828mkII (Firewire). Cue HUGE sigh of relief. Clean audio output at a 128 buffer running a modest work-in-progress with MODO Bass, Stylus, BFD3, Ivory and Omnisphere + four audio tracks + four bussed (real time) Altiverbs and other FX in Digital Performer 9.51/Sierra on my Hex Mac Pro 5,1; no clicks, pops, crackles or stutters even when running Omnisphere and Ivory in real time at 128.

The smallest buffer the mkII lets me use is 128. I tried the es with buffers of 32 (unusable) and 64 (ok for tracking, but not mixing with occasional audible artifacts on this project), but don't consider this an issue for my uses as VI response at 128 is satisfactory and I use the hardware mixer for live monitoring. Purely subjectively speaking, latency for any given buffer size feels the same for the es USB and mkII Firewire.

Updating firmware was simple. The Web app is very cool... Looks like tracking monitoring will be very player-friendly; I'm viewing the hardware mixer (Aux View) on my networked iPhone. Way more cost-effective than Aviom or Beringer personal monitor stations and enough buses to feed at least seven individual stereo mixes. Looks like my studio life is about to get a lot less stressful.

Replacing my mkII with the es is pretty much a no-brainer. All the I/O, balanced/unbalanced outputs (cuts down on special cable requirements to use with unbalanced gear), and the foot switch jack for personal punching in (a feature missing from the 16A).

For Whom the Bell Tolls... my venerable 828mkII may soon be retired. :boohoo:
HC Markus
M1 Mac Studio Ultra • 64GB RAM • 828es • macOS 13.6.4 • DP 11.31
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k0d3g3ar
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Re: Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by k0d3g3ar »

I may have a solution for you. The almost identical thing just happened to me. I had my unit connected to a Mac Mini with Thunderbolt and the unit worked flawlessly. Then I decided to get a 2010 Mac Pro and upgrade it all the way and use it as my main work horse in the studio.

Of course this computer doesn't have Thunderbolt, but has USB2 and Firewire. Well Firewire is out, so I decided to reconnect it to my 828es via USB 2. Seemed to work fine for tracking, but then when I did mix/playbacks I got what you experienced. Random pops and crackles throughout playback.

But I think I found the reason. The USB2 spec states that the max length of USB cabling should be 16 ft for USB2 and 9 ft 10 inches for USB3. I was using the USB2 interfaces on the Mac Pro but I had it on a 25ft USB cable that I bought from Amazon. Considering the spec doesn't allow for cable lengths that long, not sure why they are selling those cables. I guess they work for low importance stuff, but for audio - nope.

So I switched to a shorter cable by reconfiguring my studio a bit and guess what.... No pops or crackles.

My guess is that cable quality for USB is important here as well. I'm sure the Amazon cable I got is some el cheapo thing but it didn't dawn on me that this could be the issue until I got desperate and tried everything in the signal chain and that was it.

Hope this helps someone out.

K
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mikehalloran
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Re: Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by mikehalloran »

k0d3g3ar wrote:I may have a solution for you. The almost identical thing just happened to me. ... Random pops and crackles throughout playback.

But I think I found the reason. The USB2 spec states that the max length of USB cabling should be 16 ft for USB2 and 9 ft 10 inches for USB3. I was using the USB2 interfaces on the Mac Pro but I had it on a 25ft USB cable that I bought from Amazon. Considering the spec doesn't allow for cable lengths that long, not sure why they are selling those cables. I guess they work for low importance stuff, but for audio - nope.

So I switched to a shorter cable by reconfiguring my studio a bit and guess what.... No pops or crackles.
...
Hope this helps someone out.

K
Good catch! This will certainly help someone. Thanks for posting this.

As you have learned, besides length, USB cables are not created equal. Here is a basic tutorial for USB 1.1 & 2.
https://www.cableorganizer.com/learning ... le-faq.htm

I always check transmission speed ratings when I buy. Especially with USB 3 and 3.1, this is important—adapters, too. If the speed rating is not published, I won’t buy but the good ones publish the spec.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
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mikehalloran
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Re: Motu 828es crackling noise

Post by mikehalloran »

For those who need USB cables longer than spec, bus powered Active cables, extensions and repeaters are available.
https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Act ... 221&sr=8-2
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
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