PCI Hardware Wasted...

[Splinter]

Hello gang. Been outta the loop for a long time. Still recording and doing my thing, but in a different capacity. We're doing some spring cleaning around our house and pulled out my 2408mkiii and HD192 to see if there's something I can do with these precious beasts. I moved to a laptop a few years ago to do more portable production, but was now hoping to put my PCI interfaces back into use. I did some research yesterday only to find MOTU has screwed their PCI users.

I know this is old news to some of you guys, but as a MOTU user for the past 30 years, I can't tell you how disgusted I am with this move... or lack of movement. Just nothing. No support. No answers. AND no solutions. I know they blame it on Apple, but if other developers can find workarounds, why can't MOTU. Yeah, their AVB technology is new thing and it looks great, but how can they snub so many faithful users who've invested thousands in their interfaces. They've basically built their business on our backs and now they want us to buy new interfaces?!

Here's what I want from MOTU: A Thunderbolt(or Ethernet)-424 Breakout Box. Lose the card. Plug any MOTU AudioWire Interfaces into it and connect it to any available thunderbolt or Ethernet connection. Surely this can be done. If MOTU can't be bothered to provide its faithful users something of this nature, then I can no longer be bothered to buy their gear.

I always respected MOTU that, though their communication has been lousy, they've generally taken care of their customers, but this is really damning a large number of us here and we should make some noise about it. I've signed petitions and such, but now I'm starting one. Hopefully, James, you will see this as something positive, not just a rant on MOTU.

Sign the petition: https://www.change.org/p/motu-product-s ... m=copylink

[mikehalloran]

Ok, you are five years too late to the conversation so here's a recap.

If you have read the many other threads on the subject you'd know that no developers have found workarounds. There are none. UAD has one product, the Octo, with firmware that could be updated to be compatible. No other PCI audio interface from any manufacturer can be made to work in an extension chassis.

There is no software/driver solution and never will be. All the armchair experts who claimed it possible turned out to be wrong. Apple is not the culprit, BTW. Intel holds the keys to Thunderbolt specs and those were a moving target till 2011 when the hardware started shipping.

MOTU would have to design and build a new version of the PCIe 424 card... to support discontinued products... so that they could work in a 3rd party products... right. It's easy to see why no one went that route.

If that disgusts you, then, sorry. So? Are you going to show us all and stop using your system? Hold your breath till you turn blue? What?

A Mac Pro is still a viable machine and will be for a long time. If not new enough (3.1 or later) to run the current OS, used machines that can are are readily available and your PCIe cards will work. There are threads on inexpensive upgrades that let your machine run with the 2013 MPs.

It's not like when I had to replace my Mac+, my 6200, my G3 then my G5 all because of critical software was no longer compatible. This is not your issue.

I'm just the messenger.

No answers? We were talking about this long and hard for the first three years. Show up more often.

[Splinter]

Yes, Mike, I read the old threads on this, which is exactly why I'm disgusted about it. MOTU can do something about it and they can start by providing a hardware solution to replace the PCI-424 for a Thunderbolt/Ethernet Breakout box. Second, they can communicate their intention to continue supporting their PCI interface users. Last, but not least, in the doubtful circumstance that there is no technological workaround, they could offer a trade-in or retrofit programme to upgrade the old interfaces with new ones. I may be late to the party, but it doesn't change the reality of MOTU's injustice toward and disrespect of its faithful user base. Something should be done, so here it goes.

Sign the petition: https://www.change.org/p/motu-product-s ... m=copyLink

[rickorick]

Like Mike said it's not going to happen. I lucked out and found a used 2012 6 core machine
for cheap and put my 424 card in it. It should run for quite a while. But in the mean time
I found 2 828's to go with an 828 I already had and in December I found a new 896 that I got a real good deal on so I'm building for the future a little bit at a time. I go the used route now because the machines are powerful enough so at some point in the future a New MacPro will
show up and I'll get some kind of used interface. This is my plan for the future. You can't worry about the PCIe thing, you can still get a card from MOTU and there are 2408's and 24
i/o's out there you can still buy some insurance.

[rickorick]

By the way I also have a 2006 MacPro that only runs 10.6.8 but I'm going to take it to where I rehearse and set it up as a firewire machine since it has both type of jacks I can run firewire
400 and 800 and record with the 828's and the 896. Then I can bring the tracks to the studio
to mix on the newer machine.

[HCMarkus]

Piling on, lots of hardware still has PCIe available including, as Mike and Rick mentioned, any Mac Pro up to and including the 5,1. These computers are readily available on the used market, and any 4,1 or 5,1 can be easily updated to a performance level that is in the ballpark with the current 6,1 MP. I'll take this opportunity to pimp my favorite thread:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=58848

Noting you list a laptop in your sig, exactly how would you ever have connected your 424 before Thunderbolt was introduced? Is that MOTU's fault, too? MOTU will still sell you a 424 PCIe if you are a registered owner of 2408 et al. 424 PCIe cards are demanding a pretty penny on Ebay., so someone is still using this gear! And the MOTU Firewire interfaces will work with Thunderbolt via a TB to Firewire adaptor.

I feel your pain, to a degree, but also appreciate MOTU's position, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[Splinter]

I've been using my Macbook Pro for the last five years with an 896HD Hybrid for more portable recording while my PCI gear was collecting dust. It was of no use to me with my portable rig. My PCI gear was all connected to a G5 which is incapable of mixing upon with the latest offerings of CPU intensive plugs. My MBP dances circles around it and no developer still supports Universal Binary, so the G5 is obsolete. And this is stickler for me... the MOTU hardware is not obsolete, MOTU just refuses to support it AND leaves its users in the dark.

Look guys, I'm not just a newbie stamping my feet having a rant on MOTU. I've faithfully owned and used MOTU gear for 30 years. I just find this disgusting, to use Mike Halloran's words. I have this perfectly good, working audio interface I can't use because MOTU just dropped it? And the resell on these interfaces sucks. They are a dime a dozen. Without some way to connect them to my laptop, they are better as paper weights and I paid more for them than a new Mac Pro. Pffft.

[mikehalloran]

MOTU still supports their PCIe hardware. Let's get that straight. They are very good at releasing drivers in a timely fashion.

I wondered if you had a G5. I had one as did many others. DP is not what made it obsolete. 5.13 runs well and 7.12 runs. If you want to run 8 and newer, yes an upgrade is necessary but DP 5.13 never lost any of its functionality as time marches on. My 2408 works still.

The savings on my electric bill paid for my iMac when I gave away my G5. I replaced my G5 with a G4 so I could access OS 9 files and my 2408 works fine there, too.

Turbotax and Quickbooks, OTOH, must be current or they are useless. Other business applications likewise. It was those applications that forced me to upgrade over the years, not my ability to record and produce music.

You want MOTU to build a new line of hardware to support old hardware in old machines. I get that. You aren't alone. It isn't going to happen and you are disgusted. You've made that perfectly clear. Ok...

Your rant that your PCIe hardware is somehow wasted is nonsense. Hardware that runs it and current Mac OS is readily available.

Go ahead, howl at the moon.

[James Steele]

You're free to post your link to the petition, but I think you're wasting your time. I'm running PCI hardware and have a pretty good investment in it, owning an HD192 and 24I/O. That said, I don't expect that MOTU is obligated to support this in perpetuity. When Apple introduced the nMP sans PCIe slots the writing was on the wall.

Fortunately, MOTU *is* still supporting the PCIe hardware on supported platforms. Not long ago there were updated drivers for El Capitan if I recall correctly. Personally, since I mostly work on pop/rock songs and not orchestral type cues, I can see my system based around a MacPro4,1 which was upgraded to a 5,1 hex processor to be quite viable for a while. That's really quite a good way to go and economical too. If I do upgrade, I'll find myself a dual processor machine and upgrade it to two hexes and be a happy camper for another couple of years.... all while having easily gotten the most out of my investment in my MOTU PCI hardware.

As for a breakout box and whether that's possible... who knows? But you have to consider that it may not make good business sense for MOTU to invest R&D capital into a box that is going to potentially not recoup it's cost to develop and might even cannibalize their sales of new interfaces. I have suggested before that as a compromise MOTU ought to add a couple of AudioWire connectors to the back of their new Thunderbolt interfaces, allowing legacy audio interfaces to be connected *IF* you buy at least ONE new Thunderbolt interface. That way they're still selling interfaces and people can press the older hardware into service on the later modern MacPro.

Personally, I was disappointed that the new MacPro was not a tower configuration. I like the ability to put drives inside the machine and have peripheral cards. I also have a UAD-2 DUO card which is going to be obsolete someday too, but I have to remind myself that I got a lot of use out of it and really, am CONTINUING to get use out of it. Right now I'm happily getting work done with my "obsolete" MacPro5,1, DP 9.02, UAD-2 DUO, PCI interfaces and yes, even my Focusrite LiquidMix STILL works with the aid of 32 Lives (and disabling App Napp on the LiquidMix app)! Not bad.

Bottom line: Get yourself a used MacPro4,1... upgrade it to a hexcore machine and slap your PCIe hardware in there and get going. If you don't have a PCIe-424 card that's a more difficult spot and you'd have to buy used on eBay, etc. as mentioned before.

Anyway... I understand your frustration, but I don't think MOTU is a villain in the scenario. That's "progress."

[rickorick]

I had a 1/2 inch 8 track heads went bad I gave it away. I bought a brand new DA88 & DA 38
and a used DA 88 the used one died I still have the other 2 but I'm not going back to tape.
Gibson only made 1600 59 Les Pauls. You have a 896 that works with your laptop if you find a used Mac Pro and get a PCIe card from MOTU you can setup a editing studio in your home or wherever for not much $. This stuff changes I have learned that if I like something I try to buy 2
or even more.

[James Steele]

I just looked at the petition at the link above... I guess you are "Corbin", Splinter? I see there's one signature and 99 to go? You realize that to have any hope of MOTU making some sort of breakout box you'd have to demonstrate a demand in the THOUSANDS of users to have it make any sense, right?

Also, I find this demand in your petition a bit over the top:

2) A written apology and statement of MOTU's intent to support its PCI interface users, providing updates of product development, as well as a timeline of the aforementioned Breakout Box's scheduled release.

The emphasis is mine. "A written apology..." Are you serious? That's just kind of borderline childish and really hurts the credibility of your effort. It seems vindictive and just, well... silly.

Even if I *wanted* to sign something like this (and I don't)... I certainly wouldn't sign anything demanding MOTU apologize! For what exactly?

[rickorick]

You can still get a PCIe card from MOTU $295. If I find another 2012 6,8 or 12 core for a good price I'll pick one up as a hedge for when they stop selling them altogether. My girlfriend asks me how many computers do I need and I tell her as many as I can get!

[James Steele]

Thanks for the info. That's cool you can still get them from MOTU. My next upgrade is going to be getting a dual processor 8-core and upgrade it to a 12-core! That should be PLENTY fast for me!

[Kurt Cowling]

Unfortunately MOTU is not supporting their PCI video hardware with current drivers. My HDX-SDI is a useless brick.

[bayswater]

It wasn't MOTU that abandoned PCI, but the user, by choosing a host that doesn't work with the MOTU equipment. To suggest that MOTU therefore has an obligation to provide adaptors, so whatever they made in the past will work with whatever we buy in the future, regardless of market potential, technical feasibility, or knowledge of what future technologies might come along, is pushing it beyond reason.

Where does it end? Should MOTU build an interface so I can use my MOTU 2408 Mark 2 with Auria and GarageBand on my iPad? My iPad has more power than the computer I had when I first got the 2408. No, they shouldn't. Perpetual support for old equipment is the financial kiss of death for a technology company. A financially irresponsible MOTU is no use to any of us.