828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/latency?

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. for Mac OSX
Post Reply
mwilloam
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: LA

828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/latency?

Post by mwilloam »

Anyone used both connections and notice any difference in CPU load/latency etc ...? Just curious if it's worth trying out a FW800 -> TB2 adapter for my Macbook Pro with 828mk3 hybrid. Currently I'm using regular usb connection and performance is decent but would ideally like a lower consistent buffer setting. I know a thunderbolt and/or AVB connection would be best but trying to hold off for moment. Thanks.
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: 828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/laten

Post by mikehalloran »

Although USB 2 is rated a little faster than FW400, they are about the same in real world performance. You are not likely to notice a difference.

I think the mkIII is USB 2. Older units are USB 1.1. I am certain about FW400 even though it has the 800 connector.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
mwilloam
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: LA

Re: 828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/laten

Post by mwilloam »

mikehalloran wrote:Although USB 2 is rated a little faster than FW400, they are about the same in real world performance. You are not likely to notice a difference.

I think the mkIII is USB 2. Older units are USB 1.1. I am certain about FW400 even though it has the 800 connector.
I know the difference between FW400 and USB 2 is potentially realistically negligible, though Firewire does offer technically less load on the CPU compared to USB due to the protocol not being reliant on the host processor for various low level tasks. I'm just curious to hear from another 828 hybrid user who could say, "I've used both FW and USB, haven't noticed a difference." or "FW definitely performs better under heavier loads."
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: 828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/laten

Post by mikehalloran »

Intel Macs do not support the full FireWire protocol. TB equipped Macs support even less of it.

I have but don't use a TB Mac with DP except to test it and find that the i5 chip is much slower than the i7 (otherwise, I would have swapped Macs with my spouse).

I have used a friend's 828mkIII-H on my iMac. Except for the fact that a USB 828 works through a hub and a FW 828 crashes my FW bus if I use one (same was true with my G5), I noticed no difference. I no longer use a FW hub with my 828.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
denlap2005
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dorval Quebec Canada

Re: 828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/laten

Post by denlap2005 »

I'm curious mike on why Intel Macs don't support the full Firewire protocol.
Could you please elaborate on this? Is this documented somewhere?

Thanks!
MacBook Pro (2012) running 10.11.3, Logic Pro 10.2.1, Apogee Duet (Firewire), MOTU 828MKII.
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: 828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/laten

Post by mikehalloran »

denlap2005 wrote:I'm curious mike on why Intel Macs don't support the full Firewire protocol.
Could you please elaborate on this? Is this documented somewhere?

Thanks!
Google is your friend here. It's a hardware issue and belongs to Intel, not Apple.

Apple is fairly mum on the subject except that external boot from FW is not supported on Intel Macs (I can verify it rarely works) and that bus power on FW devices shouldn't be expected to work. The FW spec is 22V while TB only supplies 7V.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
denlap2005
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dorval Quebec Canada

Re: 828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/laten

Post by denlap2005 »

Thank you mike!
MacBook Pro (2012) running 10.11.3, Logic Pro 10.2.1, Apogee Duet (Firewire), MOTU 828MKII.
mwilloam
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: LA

Re: 828mk3h Firewire to Thunderbolt vs USB performance/laten

Post by mwilloam »

FYI, I ran a DP9.02 project today for the first time using my 828mk3h FW800 -> TB adapter and it seemed to perform slightly better/more stable than the dozen or so times I've used it over USB. This judgement was made based on not getting any dropout/spikes at 128buffer with this long running project. Could it just have been coincidence?, perhaps ... but just an fyi. I'm on the newest Macbook Pro 15" which interestingly appears to only have 1 usb bus for its 2 ports. Could be wrong but that's how I read it in system info, maybe there's something to that compared to other machines with a dedicated bus.
Post Reply