UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with USB

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deemeetree
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UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with USB

Post by deemeetree »

Hello,

I'm using my Motu UltraLite AVB to record live sessions,
using a drum machine (analogue 1/2) and a microphone (mic 1).

I send the first analogue 1/2 to group 1/2 and the microphone to group 3/4
then get those inputs in Ableton Live to record the two tracks separately.

My question is:

When I connect over USB the latency shown in Ableton for 1024 samples is about 47 ms.
When I connect over Cat 6 Ethernet cable, latency is the same - also about 47 ms.

I thought that with Ethernet there would be almost zero latency but this is obviously not the case here.

Could you please help me – maybe I'm doing something wrong?

The reason is that I need my mic input to be processed with effects so that's why I'd like to wire everything through Ableton and have zero latency.

Any ideas?


PS as an option I could wire drum machine directly and microphone through ableton - but still 40 ms is still too long of a delay - I hear it and the voice is not aligned with the drum track then.
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HCMarkus
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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by HCMarkus »

You simply cannot route audio through a computer and expect zero latency. If you want "near-zero" latency, use CueMix in your interface for monitoring of all inputs and use external effects or add later.

As for the real problem, it is the large buffer. You can't expect your computer to respond quickly while operating at 1024. Crank it down to 128 and see if that works better for you. By my understanding, the AVB driver is not as far along as the USB driver, so the fact you are getting similar latency is a good sign.
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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by EMRR »

AVB timing issues are on Apple's plate, they only exist between computer and device. AVB between devices is fast, and that's the only part MOTU can do anything about. Apple may or may not do more work on that front.
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monkey man
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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by monkey man »

Thunderbolt 1ms
USB 4ms
Ethernet 9ms

The differences between these figures pale into insignificance when buried in the 50-odd ms you're experiencing at the 1024 buffer setting.

No buffer setting in your DAW will allow in-line processing sans phase issues, however, if you can live without EQ and compression, parallel time-based effects should be fine. The thing to understand is that latency will be induced; it's a matter of how much you can live with.

My tip is to use 'verb and/or delay. That way, as long as you mix the 100% wet signal with your vox and drums, you'll be right as rain. Chorus, phaser and flanger, even if mixed 100% wet, will cause issues because whilst they sound "weird" in relation to the dry signal, their output still approximates the dynamic envelope of your live input, so combining them with the latter will constitute a distraction; timing will be smeared... and so will your brain!

Good luck, Dimitri.

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deemeetree
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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by deemeetree »

monkey man wrote:Thunderbolt 1ms
USB 4ms
Ethernet 9ms

The differences between these figures pale into insignificance when buried in the 50-odd ms you're experiencing at the 1024 buffer setting.

No buffer setting in your DAW will allow in-line processing sans phase issues, however, if you can live without EQ and compression, parallel time-based effects should be fine. The thing to understand is that latency will be induced; it's a matter of how much you can live with.

My tip is to use 'verb and/or delay. That way, as long as you mix the 100% wet signal with your vox and drums, you'll be right as rain. Chorus, phaser and flanger, even if mixed 100% wet, will cause issues because whilst they sound "weird" in relation to the dry signal, their output still approximates the dynamic envelope of your live input, so combining them with the latter will constitute a distraction; timing will be smeared... and so will your brain!

Good luck, Dimitri.

Thank you so much! and also to everyone else who replied!

You wrote about thunderbolt... can I connect my Motu Ultralite AVB to the thunderbolt port then - so ethernet on the side of the card and then into thunderbolt on my mac? Does this kind of setup even works!

Regarding the setup - the problem is that when I reduce the buffer I get some weird cracking sounds in my sound, so I'm wondering what that means...

Thanks!
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monkey man
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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by monkey man »

EMRR (Doug) is better placed to answer this, Dimitri.

If I remember correctly, you used to have to hook up the ethernet port for firmware updates, but I suspect this might have been taken care of with... a firmware update.

Theoretically, as far as I now, the single TB connection to your 'puter should be just fine. You'll get the most stable performance, less likelihood of clicks and pops (theoretically), and tonnes of channel-count headroom as the protocol can handle 128 ins as well as 128 outs (at the same time).

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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by wonder »

AFAIK, CUEMIX doesn't run on the AVB interfaces, correct?

I'm in the same boat ... I want to upgrade to the AVB interfaces but worry about headphone cues for the band. I'd like to use the AVB interface with NO latency monitoring. Does the AVB offer "direct hardware play thru"?
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monkey man
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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by monkey man »

No it doesn't, Wonder, but the MOTU software engineers haven't ruled it out. Apparently it's theoretically doable but will be tricky to implement; hopefully they'll get around to programming the capability soon.

You can still route any input to any output for near-zero-latency monitoring, a-la CueMix if you need to; this is what I plan to do. The convenience of DHP may be lost, but I figure I can live with this, in theory. Perhaps you can too.

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difab4
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Re: UltraLite AVB has the same latency with Ethernet as with

Post by difab4 »

It's actually not cuemix, but the new internal mixer that comes with the AVBs. You can route one input to all the outputs, but then you're input is coming out everywhere. The internal switching that DP does using DHP is what's needed. Surprising it wasn't initially implemented as we've been used to working this way within the MOTU universe for years. (me over 30). Luckily since I still have an 828 mk3 I can work around this by recording with the 828 then mix with the 16a. But it really shouldn't be this way.
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