New Mac... what's important?

[RodneySauer]

My old iMac (2009, dual core, 4 GB memory) is showing its age: despite moving projects and video to external drives to clear up disc space on the system/application drive, DP freezes for a minute or so whenever saving, even on projects that are essentially empty. Also, I get several "processor overload" messages per recording session, though as far as I know I haven't lost anything yet. I've spent some effort trying to debug this, but have not gotten anywhere; so I suspect that it's a combination of low memory and slow communication with external drives and the audio interface.

I record acoustic instruments, up to eight channels at a time (24 bit, 48 kHz), and I use a small number of plug-ins: Masterworks EQ on the individual tracks, Proverb on the main mix. I use a mixing board for the mic preamps, then send audio to an 828mkII which talks to the computer over Firewire. I don't use any VSTs.

I'm considering buying a new, used, or reconditioned Mac with better specs. I may switch from an iMac to a MacBook Pro plus a Thunderbolt Display: the convenience of a laptop would be nice when I take trips, and the display includes an ethernet and Firewire 800 port that should allow me to keep my internet connection, several old Firewire backup drives, and my 828mkII without further adapters, and leave a TB port on the computer open for other uses.

In the used and reconditioned market, of course, you can't get exactly the specs you want; and from the Apple store if I max everything out it gets pricier than I'd like to spend. Investigating on this newsgroup convinced me that an i7 processor is better than an i5 for DP, and I definitely want USB3 for future better hard drive connectivity (though I know I don't get that on the TB Display). So I'm wondering about the relative importance of:

• dual core i7 vs quad core i7
  
  8 GB RAM vs. 16 GB RAM
  
  256 GB flash drive vs 512 or 1TB flash drive

If I can't afford or find a Mac that maxes out all three, which of these are most important for audio performance, particularly recording and saving?

Thanks for any opinions or recommendations, no matter how vague!

[mikehalloran]

i7 definitely. USB 3 means 2012 or later. TB was 2011.

Any Mac with TB will not power FW devices so bus power is out. Most MOTU FW interfaces will work with the Apple adapter.

8 vs 16G RAM? You are probably ok with 8 but most of us feel more comfortable with more (MORE! MORE!!).

If you can get a 1T SSD on board, you'll thank yourself later.

If you decide not to go with a MacBook Pro, I recommend a 2011 iMac i7 or later. $1,150 seems to be the going rate with a 250G SSD + a 1T HD. If USB3 is important, get a 2012.

I have a 2010 with the eSATA mod from OWC so I do not feel the lack of TB/USB3 but wish I had a later one anyway. This lets me boot from an external 1T SSD that behaves like an internal, supporting TRIM and S.M.A.R.T utilities (neither works over USB, FW nor TB).

A late 2009 i7 iMac is a good machine. I'd install an SSD and replace the NV RAM battery. OWC has kits and instructions but you can get better deals on the drive elsewhere. You are stuck with FW but it would still be a nice upgrade over what you have.

A $150 backlit LCD monitor works great if you need more real estate. I have 2 running off my 2010.

You cannot upgrade a MacBook Pro with Retina display. The SSD and RAM are soldered in so get what you need the first time around. Service centers can replace the batteries as they age.

[bayswater]

If you have to skimp I'd skimp on the ssd. Not having it is inconvenient but won't cause problems with large templates and VIs. 8G ram is IMO a bare minimum.

[RodneySauer]

i7 definitely. USB 3 means 2012 or later. TB was 2011.

Any Mac with TB will not power FW devices so bus power is out. Most MOTU FW interfaces will work with the Apple adapter.

8 vs 16G RAM? You are probably ok with 8 but most of us feel more comfortable with more (MORE! MORE!!).

If you can get a 1T SSD on board, you'll thank yourself later.

If you decide not to go with a MacBook Pro, I recommend a 2011 iMac i7 or later. $1,150 seems to be the going rate with a 250G SSD + a 1T HD. If USB3 is important, get a 2012.

I have a 2010 with the eSATA mod from OWC so I do not feel the lack of TB/USB3 but wish I had a later one anyway. This lets me boot from an external 1T SSD that behaves like an internal, supporting TRIM and S.M.A.R.T utilities (neither works over USB, FW nor TB).

A late 2009 i7 iMac is a good machine. I'd install an SSD and replace the NV RAM battery. OWC has kits and instructions but you can get better deals on the drive elsewhere. You are stuck with FW but it would still be a nice upgrade over what you have.

A $150 backlit LCD monitor works great if you need more real estate. I have 2 running off my 2010.

You cannot upgrade a MacBook Pro with Retina display. The SSD and RAM are soldered in so get what you need the first time around. Service centers can replace the batteries as they age.

Thanks! So.... grab everything! I'll keep my eyes open. It sounds like high RAM is maybe the biggest priority.

My iMac is early 2009 (or so it claims), so that may make a difference... and it doesn't say whether it's i5 or i7, so I'm guessing it's not i7. The System Report and the shipping box just say "2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo." The biggest problem is that I think 4 Gbytes is the most memory it can handle (it came with 2 Gb, I replaced the chips to get 4).

I have also considered getting a more current iMac, which may give more bang for the buck than a MacBook Pro, and of course the larger internal drives are appealing (I know the most recent iMacs can't be upgraded, so I'd be looking at getting it as I expect to keep it).

The 828mkII shouldn't need bus power since it plugs in, as do my FW drives.

I don't need the extra screen for more real estate -- I usually play piano while recording, so I have a mirrored monitor, keyboard, and mouse next to the piano in our recording studio. I'm guessing that if I keep my old 20" Cinema Display I can probably use the monitor and the USB port hub with a 2012+ iMac, but not FireWire. Then someday update to the Thunderbolt monitor if I feel its worth it.

What does "replacing the NV RAM battery" do? I mean sure, replaces a battery, but what does that fix? Unless you mean replacing a whole battery of RAM chips with bigger ones... which may not be an option for my iMac.

[mikehalloran]

You don't say if yours is 21" or 24". Mid 2009, apple introduced the 27" iMac with the i5 and i7 options along with the i3 and still had a Core2 Duo.

For me, top priority is the i7 with Digital Performer. I have a 2010 i7 and my wife has a 2011 i5. As much as I would like Thunderbolt, there is no way I would ever swap with her.

After using an identical 2011 on a project and being surprised how slow it was by comparison to mine, I loaded up a few test projects and compared. On disk intensive tasks, there was little difference; on CPU intensive tasks including project loading and screen redraws, the i7 was a lot faster often by many times.

RAM is probably OK in the 8-10G range. If you find a machine loaded with four 2G or 1G modules, a pair of 4G chips will get you to 12G or 10G, certainly fine for your needs. In my case, a pair of 8s brought me to 20G.

Where the SSD shines is disk intensive tasks, of course. Bounce to Disk is extremely fast by comparison. I thought i was good with an HD, then I bought an SSD... I really, really like it but I will concur with Bays that it's not the top priority.

As nice as TB and USB3 are looking forward, since you don't make heavy use of VIs, those are low priority in my book.

A couple of years ago, mine felt sluggish and slow. I was shopping for a new Mac. OS 10.9 and DP 8 running 64bit made this puppy run faster and better than new. I went to an SSD when Yosemite came out. Would I like a newer Mac? Silly question. Do I need one? No, not yet.... really (don't tell my wife!)

[RodneySauer]

Yes, it's a 24" core duo. Thanks for the details... sounds like I bought a few months too soon

But that also lets me know that I don't need the most current iMac or MacBook to make a difference, just a few years more current than mine, and improved (or improvable) memory.

[Saintmatthew]

Yeah, I have an almost identical system to your iMac. My daughter uses it now. Believe me, anything made in 2010 or later will probably smoke it and you'll be surprised how much so. MY recommendation - if you go laptop - pick up a 2010-2012 Macbook PRO. You can up the RAM yourself still, at least in the 2010's and they have the i series processors. Fusion drive works well if you want to save on SSD but want to get some of the benefits. if you don't need a laptop, the 2012 quad i7 Mac Mini's are pound for pound better than any mini's released since. You can find them pretty easy, often new in the box on ebay from actual businesses selling packaged stock and not used ones. I got one after seeing the newer minis have worse specs and it SCREAMS!

[HCMarkus]

Don't know your budget, but you might consider a 2009 4,1 Mac Pro base model ($600) plus Xeon X5680 ($170) for a rock sold, very fast and expandable DP machine. Add an SSD and (if necessary) a current GPU and you have an audio/video powerhouse!

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=58848

[stubbsonic]

i7 is important both for muscle and for compatibility (for some apps & processes).

16 GB might be overkill depending on the kinds of projects you do, but it will be convenient if you are running sampler VI's like Kontakt.

I've done fine with a 500 GB SSD and don't ever run out of space. I do have non SSD externals for Time-Machine, manual back-ups and archives.

It sounds like you and I do similar kinds of projects & track counts.

[RodneySauer]

Thanks for all the people adding recommendations! The 2012 Mac Mini is looking more and more attractive -- I like that it has both Thunderbolt (for future drives and interfaces) AND Firewire for my 828mkII. Someone is selling one nearby for a reasonable price, and I see already-souped-up versions on ebay as well.

With a Thunderbolt display on my main desk (someone also has one of those nearby on craigslist), and an HDMI monitor in the next room by the piano, I should be just about set and can keep all of my other hardware intact. And I had fun watching the OWC video about upgrading memory and installing an SSD drive as an addition to the 1Tb hard drive that it comes with...

Is there a big performance difference between adding a SSD drive inside as a second drive using the SATA connection, versus plugging in external SSD drive via Thunderbolt or USB3?

[mikehalloran]

When I needed a new monitor three weeks ago, I found that nearly all new monitors are HDMI in, usually with a second VGA in.

Thunderbolt supports HDMI displays with a simple Mini DisplayPort to HDMI adapter.
http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Display ... B0025V2VO0

I bought a 24" backlit LED from Fry's for $150 that is pretty nice. Unlike my older monitors, it runs cool to the touch without a fan. Shopping online, I could have done a little better. I didn't have the desk space for a 27" or I would have bought one for $250 or so.

[RodneySauer]

After surfing craigslist for a week or two (it's surprising how many people list things for sale and then don't respond to requests wanting to buy them!), I ended up with a 2012 iMac. It's got the i7 processors, 32 Gbytes of RAM (!) and the 1 Tbyte Fusion drive, and still under Applecare. There's a slight crack in the upper corner of the glass, but nothing that gets in the way of the area of the screen where you work.

The 2012 doesn't have Firewire at all, but I picked up a $30 Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapter at the Apple Store, and it worked immediately with my 828mkII which is daisy-chained to a LaCie Firewire 800 disk drive that has a Firewire 400 port as well.

The Apple File Migration feature was painless: I connected my new and old iMacs together through the Thunderbolt/Firewire adapter, and it chewed for about five hours and moved all my old files and applications across. All I had to do was re-register DP, Microsoft, and a couple of other programs.

My first tests showed that the computer is much zippier than my old Dual Core Intel, but my first test "save" had that same darn beach-ball (for 20 seconds rather than almost a minute, but still! I was hoping to get rid of that).

The second save was much, much quicker. Was it random chance, or is it the Fusion drive doing its job, moving some large slow-to-save file onto the SSD portion of the drive?

Before I had time to do any more testing I had an appointment for a diagnostic run at the Apple Store (it is a craigslist find, after all). Everything checked out perfectly. And the Apple Store guy thought that the crack in the screen MIGHT be due to a manufacturing defect, and they'd be happy to replace it free of charge. So, they've got it, and I should get it back on Friday.

Thanks for all of the advice here! I'm glad that I ended up with a solution that could basically slide in where my old iMac slid out, leaving the rest of my legacy gear intact. The advice on processors and connectivity was particularly helpful.

[mikehalloran]

Congratulations!

The second save was much, much quicker. Was it random chance, or is it the Fusion drive doing its job, moving some large slow-to-save file onto the SSD portion of the drive?

This applies to all late model Macs but especially to Fusion drives. The OS will take awhile to sort things out – it just does. Spotlight will also get in the way for awhile and this will cause the occasional hiccup.

Your first Time Machine backup will do the same and will be slower because Spotlight will be indexing that drive, too (let this happen in case you ever need to restore an individual file).

the Apple Store guy thought that the crack in the screen MIGHT be due to a manufacturing defect, and they'd be happy to replace it free of charge.

How nice is that?

One caveat about the Fusion drive. Do not attempt to defrag or optimize. Good tools like TechTool Pro will not do it if a fusion drive or SSD is detected. Crapware will tell you it's ok to convince you to keep spending money with them.

TechTool Pro 8 officially supports Apple's Fusion drive. All tests and tools can be used safely with this one important restriction. From MicroMat (TTP).

Optimization (defragmentation) is not recommended for any disk that incorporates an SSD component. Optimization on Solid State drives doesn't speed up data access because all data is accessed at the same speed regardless of physical location. In addition, solid state drives utilize a feature called wear-leveling which uses all of the sectors of the drive evenly to extend the life of the drive. Optimizations work against this feature, wearing out the SSD sooner. When it comes to Fusion Drives specifically, optimizing may actually slow down the performance of your Mac if often used data is moved off the SSD portion of the drive during the optimization. So, the File and Volume Optimization tools will warn you against running them on your Fusion equipped Mac.

[RodneySauer]

One last follow-up on this story. The new iMac has been working admirably and speedily. I also added an external Thunderbolt SSD for saving my projects, and that's good too.

But one of the biggest glitches I was hoping to fix was not solved: when I save my project, I get a spinning ball for over a minute, and have to stop all work until it's done saving. True, the faster processor means that the spinning ball only goes on for thirty-five seconds rather than over a minute, but it was still noticeable and interfered with normal work. That was a bit depressing: obviously not due to RAM, or processor speed, or disk speed; since I'd vastly improved all of those. And I didn't find reports of others taking this long to save their projects.

I realized that for probably eight years or so, I've been creating new projects by using templates created from older projects, since there's a fair amount of set-up that goes into my particular workflow. The one thing I hadn't tried was creating a new project from scratch: perhaps there's some kind of bug, glitch, or just a pile of out-dated stuff in those templates that was screwing things up, and I was copying it into each new project when I used the New (from Template) command.

So I spent a day analyzing my groups, saving out my EQ setups and reverbs, etc.; and created a new template in DP 9. Surprise! The problem is now solved, and the new project saves in under a second.

So, I could probably have stuck with the old computer a bit longer and saved some money. But the new one is very nice, and with luck I'll have fewer processor spikes...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Sometimes that spinning balls the result of a drive directory or other bottleneck in reading/writing to a drive. Other times, it can be related to the program. Only wife's Macbook Pro, older versions of Word give the color wheel, while the new version doesn't.

Not sure which is going on for you, Rodney, but you might try and run Activity Monitor simultaneously and so if that provides any clues. It shows CPU as well as dick access data.