SMPTE problem with Logic Pro X

[Pete234]

Hi, I'm new to the Forum, so hoping someone can help!
My gear is Logic Pro X.
MOTU 828X.
Macbook Pro with OSX (late 2014)

My problem...
I am trying to get my old AKAI DR16 hard-disc recorder (mid 1990s) to control Logic Pro X via the MOTU SMPTE, but every time it seems to send some sort of minus 8 Bar 'off-set' into Logic.
The Logic display shows the Playhead Position (SMPTE) at 59:42:00:00, and the Playhead Position (Bars) at minus - 8 1 1 1 001.

I then try a couple of things to see what happens...
1. When I press Play on the AKAI, all I get is a sort of 'juddering' on the Logic Playhead (very quickly back and forth) as it tries to start, somewhere between -8 and -8 111.

2. When I press Play directly in Logic (ingoring the AKAI, but leaving it connected), the Sync icon goes out and the display moves slightly further, allowing more of a 'toggling' movement between -8 and -8 2, but still refusing to go beyond this point.
However, when I re-engage the Sync (this has to be whilst it's toggling as it goes out as soon as Play in Logic is pressed), it picks up OK and continues counting down towards zero, as you would expect.
Then, when I retry via the AKAI, the Logic Playhead reverts back to the 'juddering' movement as before (at -8 bars) - the Sync icon in Logic stays lit as it should, but Logic still won't go beyond -8 1.
The AKAI continues just fine, it's only Logic that won't follow beyond this point.

I have noticed, when I open a New Project in Logic with the MOTU Clock Source set to Internal, I DON'T get the -8 Bar problem.
I guess this is normal as it's just a basic Logic project (without SMPTE), but as soon as I re-set the MOTU Clock Source to SMPTE the Logic Playhead Position (Bars) reverts to the minus 8 bars problem.
One thing I did notice... when I opened an earlier song (in Logic) with a 3/4 time signature, the 'off-set' showed up as minus 11 Bars, so I wondered if this may be of relevence?

I have looked into the Synchronization Settings (in Logic) but everything appears to be at Bar 111 1, with no apparent off-set.
I did try to various ways to compensate, but nothing seems to make any diffenece to the juddering or toggling.

One point that may be valid...
I have noticed the MIDI display (in Logic) is toggling between No In and X2 0 0 whilst in SMPTE mode. This does NOT happen when Internal is selected.
I'm not sure if this is relevent, but thought it worth mentioning.

Basically, I am sending SMPTE OUT from the AKAI into the MOTU SMPTE IN, and from what I can see this seems to be working correctly. However, when I send SMPTE OUT from the MOTU to the AKAI SMPTE IN it doesn't seem to work that way around - Logic won't control the AKAI.
This doesn't bother me too much as I am happy to control Logic via the AKAI, but I thought it may just be relevent and worth mentioning.

With thanks,
Pete

[TinenTech]

I don't know your specific gear, but it reminds me of an old problem called "rolling through midnight". Are you sure the Akai doesn't start each song at 00 hours:00mins? A lot of gear didn't follow the practice of starting at 00hrs:59mins30secs. This causes an out of range problem (and in the days of tape machines, everything going into fast forward "thinking" they had to catch up 23 hours!).

Somewhere in the Akai is a parameter to set what SMPTE time corresponds to what elapsed time, just as there are settings in Logic that say bar 1 beat 1 = 01:00:00:00. That's where I'd start.

What happens when you start a minute into the song?

And, beside SMPTE, how are your word clocks set up...what's master and slave? Or are you not using any digital I/O in this?

[Pete234]

Hi TinenTech, and thanks for the reply.
Yes, the AKAI starts at 00:00:00:00:0 (the exact readout), whereas Logic shows 01:00:00:00:00.
The Time Display options I have in the AKAI are Absolute, Relative and BBC.
I don't recall an AKAI parameter relating to SMPTE Time/Elapsed Time, but please say if I'm missing the point here.
I am able to set and Offset within the AKAI, but there are none within the songs I am trying to sync.

Regarding what happens if I start mid-song....
It's exactly the same, Logic remains 'juddering' at -8 bars, it never leaves this position - it's trying to start but cannot, almost as if I have inserted a Marker at that pont, of which I haven't.

Re. my gear and what is Master/Slave...
I'm using the AKAI as Master (SPMTE LTC), with Logic as Slave (SPMTE MTC), via the MOTU 828X.
I have noticed that, whilst the AKAI shows SMPTE LTC, Logic shows SYMPTE (MTC) (with 'MTC' in brackets), as if they are two of the same.
The only reference to 'MTC' on the AKAI is MIDI MTC, but when I try that nothing happens at all.
I read somewhere that Logic recognises LTC, so I have stuck with that.

I take a 1/4" cable from the AKAI SMPTE OUT to the MOTU 828X SYMPTE IN.
This seems to be OK as Logic IS receiving SOMETHING, it just won't budge from -8 bars!

For some reason I can't get the 'reverse to happen at all, with Logic not able to work as Master at all, but I am happy for it to work either way as all I want to do is transfer old songs from the AKAI onto Logic.

One thing I have noticed - when I connect to the dedicated MOTU SMPTE IN, the 'Level knob' mentioned in the manual doesn't appear.
I'm not sure if it should via this input, but when I try one of the analogue Inputs instead, the Volume knob appears, but Logic still won't budge from -8 bars.

I'm not very good with manuals and find them a tad confusing, but this is how my settings appear:
MOTU Audio Setup Clock Source = SMPTE.
MOTU SYMPTE Setup = SMPTE, SMPTE, SMPTE/SMPTE.
Tach/Clock/Address lights are all illuminating as per the manual.

Thanks again for your help anyway, I did wonder if the AKAI was just too old to be recognised!
I posted similar request on the Logic forum but no one came forward at all, so I suspect this is something not many people have come across.
Pete
UPDATE!
I have just noticed - when I remove the SMPTE jack from the MOTU, and reset ALL the relevent MOTU SMPTE settings (Audio and SMPTE), the song I was working with in Logic refuses to return to normal, retaining the Start position of -8 bars created by the SMPTE attempt, no matter what I try to do.
The screen remains at 59:42:00:00, with the Bars still back at -8 1 1 1, even though there is NO SMPTE or Sync in there at all.
Very strange!

I don't know your specific gear, but it reminds me of an old problem called "rolling through midnight". Are you sure the Akai doesn't start each song at 00 hours:00mins? A lot of gear didn't follow the practice of starting at 00hrs:59mins30secs. This causes an out of range problem (and in the days of tape machines, everything going into fast forward "thinking" they had to catch up 23 hours!).

Somewhere in the Akai is a parameter to set what SMPTE time corresponds to what elapsed time, just as there are settings in Logic that say bar 1 beat 1 = 01:00:00:00. That's where I'd start.

What happens when you start a minute into the song?

And, beside SMPTE, how are your word clocks set up...what's master and slave? Or are you not using any digital I/O in this?

[TinenTech]

What happens when you set the Logic Song Start time to 00 hours instead of 01 hours?

Open up the MOTU SMPTE reader application...see what time code the Akai is really generating.

ABS time, if I recall, always starts at 0, and you have to tell the MDM (ADAT in the case I'm familiar with) that "ABS 00:00 = SMPTE 01:00:00:00" somehow.

[Pete234]

Hi again TinenTech, and thanks for your continued help.
Firstly, before I answer your points...

I have just discovered, the -8 Bar offset gets inserted into Logic, REGARDLESS of whether the AKAI is connected to the MOTU/Logic or not!
To me, this eliminates the AKAI altogether, and suggests the problem lies somewhere between Logic and the MOTU.
I didn't realise this until now, or I would have mentioned it before.

If I open a New Project (without the AKAI even in the chain), all is fine - UNTIL I switch on SMPTE from the MOTU Audio Setup, or the MOTU SMPTE Setup... both have exactly the same effect and send the -8 Bar offset into Logic - without the AKAI even connected!

Ok, to answer your points...
1. I wasn't able to reset Logic to 00:00:00:00:00, I tried but couldn't get it to stay there - as soon as I click elsewhere it reverts back to 01.00:00:00:00.

2. I checked the MOTU SMPTE Reader and the AKAI is sending 00:00:00:00.

3. You mentioned the ADAT bit below, which triggered something in my thoughts...
Yes, the AKAI connects via ADAT cards, and throughout this I have NOT had the Optical cables connected - I assumed, as they were not directly linked to the Sync as such, I would not need them at this stage, so there is no Optical connection between the AKAI and the MOTU... could this be the reason?
Having said that, would the -8 Bar problem still occur without the AKAI even in the chain?

Thanks again for your help anyway.
Pete

quote="TinenTech"]What happens when you set the Logic Song Start time to 00 hours instead of 01 hours?

Open up the MOTU SMPTE reader application...see what time code the Akai is really generating.

ABS time, if I recall, always starts at 0, and you have to tell the MDM (ADAT in the case I'm familiar with) that "ABS 00:00 = SMPTE 01:00:00:00" somehow.[/quote]