A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help?!

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Chimera
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A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help?!

Post by Chimera »

I apologize for my ignorance for this will probably be answered in one sentence.
... and I DID RTFM
I have some gain problems with the motu 828 mk2.. I think

I sing into my SM 58 at normal relaxed volume with the mic one inch away from my lips. A bit louder than the level you would talk to some one at, not yelling. When I do that I only get about 24 in the mic and less than 42 on the L main out as you can see…
Image



I get a good 0.8 in logic so thats ok…

Image


BUT here is where the problem might start….

I have the trim almost cranked to MAX to get a decent level!

Image



(This is it maxed out…)

Image


SO when a raise my voice even slightly in amplitude the mic peaks like crazy!



Not only that but,
EVEN IF I max out the trim and raise my voice loud enough to peak the mic I can NEVER get above 24 in the mains….

like so…

Image



cranking the mic in, in cuemix does nothing to rase the mains on the motu in any way.
…I mean I guess thats obvious.


as you can see here…

Image




Basically its just waaaaaay to dynamic, If I want to raise my voice even a bit from sining quiet it peaks and Id have to slam the crap out of it to keep it under control.

I have no room to play around :(

Does anyone know what Im missing?
Is it that the SM 58 is just like that?

I feel like there is some gain control I’m missing somewhere in the chain….


Logic 9
OS 10.10.1

Im not to versed in this so thank you for your patients!!!
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monkey man
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by monkey man »

I saw something like this discussed at BeerGutz once.

Seems there's an automatic attenuation going on somewhere, and I can't help but wonder if it's because:

1) Phantom power could be on and so the interface thinks you're using a condenser mic

or

2) You may need to pop a 1/4" jack on that puppy and plug it into (this sounds ridiculous) one of the guitar inputs or even a line in, using the trim in CueMix to crank it.

Dunno. If you can do a search at GS, I'm certain this sort of issue has been "discussed".

Sorry I can't be more comprehensive, Chimera. At least make sure the Phantom Power switch is toggled off; you never know, and it makes sense that MOTU might've designed the input to pad down when it's on 'cause condenser mics obviously have powered assistance.

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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by rockitcity »

Having your input gain trim up high is pretty normal for an SM58. I usually run them around +24-27 for normal speech.

From what I see, and what I read in the manual (http://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/firewi ... al_Mac.pdf) you need to turn up the main output volume. Try pushing and turning the volume knob on the front panel to get more main output level. The MkII doesn't have any DSP effects built in, so there should be no automatic gain attenuation happening. Also, you probabaly won't get much at all if you plug a low impedance mic into the guitar input. Phantom power should have no affect on gain either, unless you happen to plug in a ribbon mic, in which case you will probably ruin the mic. I think it's just improper gain staging.
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by billf »

A few weeks ago I used an SM57 on an 828mkII to record, and did have to turn the gain trim up, but somewhere in the +25 range. If I have a chance this week, I'll try a 58 on it and see if there is any difference.
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by mikehalloran »

Main up, input down. Somewhere is the right setting. When set right, the input and Main should register about the same -- I set the input a little lower.

The input LED rack does not cover the entire dynamic range of the preamp. If low levels don't register, that's ok. If background noise is showing up, you have Trim set way too high. If you speak softly and it doesn't register, again it's ok as long as the peaks don't overload. The closer you are to the mic, the more likely this occurs. Part of good vocal technique is to understand this so you don't sing too softly on the quiet parts. Even then, most singers require some compression on mix down.

Electrically, an SM 57 and 58 are identical. It's the grill that changes the response.

One of the problems with these is the 150 Ohm input impedance, too low for most preamps. There's an inexpensive mod you can do to improve the high end accuracy of both mics for recording by lowering the output impedance of your pre to properly load the microphone. It also lowers the sensitivity by about 1.5dB. You actually don't need to touch the mic or the 828 as you can install it in a short cable or extender. I've posted it before and will look for it this afternoon.
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by rockitcity »

mikehalloran wrote: ...One of the problems with these is the 150 Ohm input impedance, too low for most preamps. There's an inexpensive mod you can do to improve the high end accuracy of both mics for recording by lowering the output impedance of your pre to properly load the microphone. It also lowers the sensitivity by about 1.5dB. You actually don't need to touch the mic or the 828 as you can install it in a short cable or extender. I've posted it before and will look for it this afternoon.
Don't know how much this would help, maybe a lot, but I think I'd just go get a better mic if I needed more accuracy than a 57 or 58. I mean, they're basic utility PA mics that impart some character to the sound as they are. Of course, the OP just wants to get some usable sound out of his, and may be the only choice he has at this point.
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by mikehalloran »

...but I think I'd just go get a better mic if I needed more accuracy ...
I won't rehash the the SM-57 vs a decent recording mic debate here. It's really not germain to the OP who needs to know how to set up his 828mkII. Hopefully, we've helped in that matter as pretty much any microphone will give him the same grief without this knowledge.

If you're of a certain age, you learned the basics on how to set up microphones and line from Mackie ads and manuals first written in the early 1990s. Once you understand the principles, almost any piece of gear behaves. I'm a bit older but found them quite helpful in teaching others as they eliminate a lot of the guesswork in trying to navigate the space between the noise floor and clipping.
http://www.mackie.com/pdf/archive/ms1202vlz_om.pdf

The 828mkII manual doesn't discuss these issues at all. It assumes you know the basics but many don't. It only says the following on pg 11:

These two trim knobs provide approximately 42dB of gain for the lo-Z XLR mic input and 17dB for the hi-Z TRS guitar/instrument input. Both inputs have preamps, so you can plug just about anything into them: a microphone, a guitar, a synth –– but don’t plug in a +4 signal here (due to the preamps): use a rear-panel TRS input instead. Use the trim knob and the “MIC” input level meters over in the metering section to calibrate the input signal level. The meters cover both the TRS and XLR input.

As I mentioned earlier, only the maximum level is important when setting the input gain via the Trim knob. Whether it shows up on the LED display or not at low levels doesn't mean a thing.


I won't rehash the the SM-57 vs a decent recording mic here. It's really not germain to the OP who needs to know how to set up his 828mkII. Hopefully, we've helped in that matter as pretty much any microphone will give him the same grief.

BTW, all of this assumes a USA made Shure SM-57 in good working order with a properly working cable (as opposed to a counterfeit with unknown specs).
One of the problems with these is the 150 Ohm input impedance, too low for most preamps.
This next part assumes a USA made Shure SM-57 in good working order with a properly working cable (as opposed to a counterfeit with unknown specs). Nearly all low-z Shure dynamic microphones from the 1960s on have a 150 Ohm input. This includes most of the Beta series, too, so the following article applies:

Shure SM57 Impedance Modification
A simple gizmo makes a big difference
http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/r ... l/330.html

Although the specs are not in the manual, a few sources have listed the following or variations for the various 828s:
...
XLR input is 2k Ohms.
The front panel 1/4" jack on the 828 is 220k Ohms
Rear panel line inputs are 10k Ohms


This makes the recommended resistor in the article as close as you need. Here's a link to the recommended barrel adapter. You can get it pre-wired or unwired. The resistor goes between 2 and 3.
http://www.markertek.com/product/na3fm/ ... on-adapter

I have an old Shure mixer from about 1970 or so. I probably haven't used it in 40 years. I don't remember it sounding all that good the last time I fired it up. Back then, you ordered them XLRM, XLRF, Amphenol 3 or 4F, high-z 1/4" or high-z Amp 1. I still have Shure mics with all of those plugs except XLRF.
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Chimera
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by Chimera »

WOW! this is more help than I thought I would get, thanks guys!! :D

monkey man
I hadn't set the phantom power on or try the other suggestion but I don’t know if it will do anything as stated later in this thread, it might not work.
But hey man thanks for the advice and how fast you replied!

billf

Rad!
Anything helps!

rockitcity and mikehalloran

You guys are right.

I have a lot to learn still.

I just messed around with my monitors off and could get a decent level in both the mains.
That decent level is much to loud though, for it to go above 42 mean, but thats fine as long as I can hear it I right. So that testing was pointless.

Also you're right about my singing ability, I just need to do some, self limiting I guess. Pulling the mic away when singing louder and closer when quiet and much more technique of course…

Yes right now the SM-58 is all I have to work with, I’ll look into getting a nice condenser in the future though for sure.

I find the manual while it is helpful leaves much to be desired for me. I guess its just understood that you have an astute understanding of routing etc if you own an interface like this…

I was in daycare in the late 90’s so this information is awesome!

great I’ll try that resistor right away..
Cheap upgrades!

So I think I understand you saying mikehalloran that it might be a good idea to also try the back 1/4 as they have less resistance?
I’ll have to pick up that cable if so.


Thank you all very much again, This was a very informative and reasonable conversation, I’ll be coming back here often!!!
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by monkey man »

Awesome!

It never ceases to amaze me how much information guys like Mike, and we have a few here at the 'Nation, manage to retain between their ears.

I'm just grateful there's a whole lotta space between mine so in theory at least, there's always room for improvement. A great deal of improvement. :?

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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by mikehalloran »

I have ordered up the parts to make up a couple of those impedance adapters. I have a friend who sounds best singing through a Beta 58a and I want to see if this makes him sound any better.

Also, I have a vintage Shure 315 ribbon that sounds fantastic on upright bass except when it absolutely sucks. It's always a crapshoot with that mic. Perhaps loading it better will make it consistent--or not.

For less than $10 each, it's worth the shot. I'll make one to match my Mackie mixer and another to match my 828mkII.

No doubt my next mic pre will have variable input impedance but that is a low priority purchase for me.
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by rockitcity »

ModificationShure SM57 Impedance
A simple gizmo makes a big difference
http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/r ... l/330.html
Thanks for the link, Mike. Very thorough article and somewhat interesting reading on how to gain some improvement from a pedestrian microphone. Doubt I'll get around to trying it as I have plenty of other mics to choose from and I am not as inclined to be as tweaky as I may once have been.

And, best of luck to Chimera with your quest. You mention "going above 42," being too loud. I assume that means on your main outs? You might want to consider a monitor controller in the future so you can run your interface at its optimum range. If you are running the 828 main outs directly into powered monitors, you might also consider turning the powered monitors down some. (I hope they are on a separate switched power circuit as the 828 thumps pretty loud on power cycling!)
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Re: A-hoy-hoy! MOTU 828 MKII Mic in is waay to dynamic, help

Post by mikehalloran »

The Behringer Mini MON800 sells for $70 new at all the usual places. I paid $35 on eBay for mine used. Someone on Amazon has a used one for $50.

I bought mine as a stop-gap while I researched a better unit and was pleasantly surprised by how good these are and how versatile. I decided that, while there are plenty of controllers a lot more expensive, I didn't find any better for my studio. Ted at Equator checked one out also for use with his monitors and was as impressed as I am.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MON800.aspx

I'm not a big fan of the company but, when something works, it works.
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