Equal Volumes

[Aaron Guidry]

Hello!

I've asked this question before, but never really got a solution that helped with my particular set-up. So, I thought I'd ask again with a slight variation:

I run my Instrument Tracks (such as Kontakt) through Analog 1-2. The level on playback seems to be perfect, but when freezing the track or recording MIDI to audio, the waveform is tiny, tiny, tiny! Consequently, the level of my recording drops considerably when playing back through Main Outs 1-2, which are also set at a perfect level.

Another piece of the puzzle: My Main Outs are about 20dB less than Analog 1-2. That'd explain the volume drop. I'd love to match them, but can't seem to figure out how to bring the level of the Analog 1-2 down. I could bring the Main Outs up, but then I'd be way too loud on my Main Outs. I'm using an UltraLite.

I'm most interested in knowing why the waveform is so tiny when freezing the Analog 1-2 tracks. The volume is perfect on playback prior to freezing. Once frozen, the audio track created is super quite due to the waveform being sooo tiny!

Any advice?!

[bayswater]

Why would the Main Outs be too loud if you brought the level up? Is it because you're using active monitors that run flat out? I have that setup, so I use a TC Electronic Level Pilot to control the level of the signal from the Main Outs to the Monitors. That lets me leave all the outputs at more or less unity in Cuemix, and otherwise manage levels in the DP mixer.

Otherwise, I'd be looking at Cuemix to see how the mix levels are set.

[Aaron Guidry]

Yes, my monitor speakers are at 0dB, and if I crank the Main Outs any further, it'd simply be too loud. For example, when I play iTunes, I have my monitors and mixer at unity (with the Ultralite Main Outs at -15dB), but I have to pull the iTunes Master Volume Slider down to nearly 15% so it doesn't blow me away. That in itself probably means the Main Outs are too loud as it is, I'm assuming?

I've never quite understood how to adjust the Analog Out volumes in CueMix when running Kontakt through Analog 1-2. I can definitely control it when I'm using mic inputs, but not so much with MIDI. Thoughts?

[bayswater]

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly how your routing is set up. If you are playing Kontakt through Analog 1-2, and your speakers are connected to the Main Outs, how are you hearing the Kontakt output routed to Analog 1-2? Or are you not referring to the Analog 1-2 physical outputs on your interface? Or is Analog 1-2 mirrored to Main Outs?

In any case, I'd be setting up the monitors so that when you have the Main Outs up to unity, you get a loud but usable level coming out of your monitors. Either you use the trim on the monitors if they have one, or you put some sort of attenuator (e.g. Pilot or similar) between your Interface and the speakers. One of these methods might give you a better S/N ratio than the other. In my case, I have Mackie 824s connected to the Main Outs via the Pilot which controls the monitoring level.

If you don't want to do that, it seems to me you ought to be routing everything to the Main Outs, and doing all freezing, bouncing etc. from that output.

[Aaron Guidry]

Thanks for the feedback!

I've got a small mixer between the Ultralite and my monitors. So, Analog 1-2 are going out of the Ultralite and into my mixer. From the mixer, it goes out to the monitors via the mixer's Main Outs. The Main Outs from the Ultralite also go through the mixer before going to the monitors.

I could turn down the Analog 1-2 mixer's channels to match my Main Outs, but I'd like to keep it all at unity.

The big question I have, though, is...the volume is nice and big coming through Analog 1-2. But, looking at the fader, there's hardly any signal. Consequently, when I freeze, the waveform is super tiny. As a result, playback volume of the frozen track pales in comparison, at least by 20dB. If I'm running everything at unity, and it's great coming thru the monitors, why is the actual signal so soft on the meters (and waveform)?

Thanks!

[bayswater]

Perhaps two possibilities. 1) you have is a very low signal on Analog 1-2 that is being amplified to a very loud level. Further, maybe it is being amplified in the analog domain. If so, the noise floor is being amplified at the same time. It will sound better if you have the level going to Analog 1-2 higher, and then trim it to the desired level in the hardware mixer. 2) you are actually hearing the Kontakt through the Main Outs, and the signal level in Analog 1-2 is very low, and therefore giving you the waveform you describe when you freeze it. Maybe Analog 1-2 is mirrored to Main Outs. I don't know how the Ultralight works, but you should be able to see what's going on here in MOTU Audio Setup.

If you look in Cuemix, that will at least tell you what is happening before the signals leave your Ultralight. You can set the active channels and look at the monitor section to see what's going on. You ought to see a good strong signal on Analog 1-2 in the Ultralight. If not, explanation 2 above could be what is happening. When you look at Main Outs, you shouldn't be seeing much coming from Kontakt if it is not routed to Main Outs.

It seems to me you are complicating life by routing Kontakt to Analog 1-2 rather than Main Outs. Why not just go to Main, and control levels in the mixer?

[Aaron Guidry]

Great suggestions!

I'm pretty sure #2 is not happening. Question about #1: in Cuemix, I've never been able to control Analog 1-2 with Kontakt or any MIDI device. The faders and trim don't do anything. Neither does the Master Fader. My output of the MIDI tracks in DP is Analog 1-2. The input (in this example) is Kontakt 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, etc

Do I need to be bussing somehow? Or ???

[bayswater]

Cuemix is not going to be affected by Kontakt. It is basically the GUI for the internal mixer inside the Ultralight. It can control the level of signals at the Ultralight inputs, mix these inputs on one of the internal busses in the Ultralite and send the mix to one of the Ultralight outputs. You can use it to monitor levels at inputs and outputs. But it doesn't interact with the mixer or routing inside DP.

Bussing? Don't know. It would depend on the details of whatever else you have going on in DP with other VIs, audio tracks, effects, etc. But for basic playback of a VI, you probably don't need to do anything in Cuemix, or in your mixer for that matter. You can easily do all the necessary mixing in DP, and route everything via a Master Fader in DP to the physical Main Outs on the Ultralight, and then use your mixer to control monitor levels on the speakers.

[Aaron Guidry]

The Master Fader idea is a great idea. I'm still scratching my head as to why the signal from Analog 1-2 is so low. The same is true if I route Knotakt to Main Outs 1-2. I basically have to run my volume controllers at 100+ with velocities cranked to get any kind of somewhat decent waveform.

This issue is common to all sound library players (Kontakt, MachFive, Play, Ivory, etc.).

[bayswater]

That's a mystery. Is there some sort of master volume setting in Kontakt that would account for this? I've managed to avoid Kontakt to this point, so I don't know much about it, but I've had no problems getting reasonable sound levels from the VIs I used, including Mach Five.

Does Kontakt have an internal mixer with meters that show you the level of the sounds coming out of it before they hit the DP mixer?

[Aaron Guidry]

Yes, I can adjust the volume level of each voice in Kontakt. All is good there. And, as you mentioned, MachFive has similar capabilities of volume adjustments prior to hitting DP. But, even MachFive for me has little signal to WAV, yet is plenty loud when playing back prior to freezing.

Since it's happening to all my VI's, not just Kontakt, I'm assuming there's an issue somewhere else in the chain.