PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

[griffin]

Thank you, cbm!

Sorry, for messing the forum up, but what are the thoughts here about Apogee stuff? Is it just branding or stuff is realy so good?

I'm interested in Apogee Quartet. Simphony would be overkill, but DUET might limit few recordings. Alternatives?

[eri]

I talked to MOTU guys at the NAMM show. They had no answer to a question if they are working on PCIe 424 connectivity to Thunderbolt. I do not think MOTU is working on this.

[Harry]

Hello,
because for me it's also not possible to use my 2408 with the new iMac i7 and Thunderbolt I work again with my old blue 828 FW Interface. This works really very fine and with no problems.

[apanacci]

Dumped my PCI 424 and 2408 original and bought the 828MKIII. Best thing I did . Do not have to worry about waiting for Motu.

[mikehalloran]

I talked to MOTU guys at the NAMM show. They had no answer to a question if they are working on PCIe 424 connectivity to Thunderbolt. I do not think MOTU is working on this.

Hmmmm... They answered it for many of us. Intel or Apple has made changes to the TB spec that cannot be solved by writing a new driver. It would take a new PCIe card or a dedicated AudioWire to Thunderbolt adapter.

If they made a new PCIe card and sold it for the same $299 that the old ones go for, you would still need a PCIe expansion chassis. Last I checked, OWC sells a single channel for $379 and a dual for $495. Add a cable and it's $700 and up for the ability to use your legacy equipment.

As Mr. Zimmerman wrote so many years ago, "You don't need weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

I don't see it happening.

[ltd99]

I've been searching everywhere for some shred of evidence that the PCIe card works in a thunderbolt enclosure on a late 2013 macbook pro retina. I couldn't wait anymore and bought the Helios 2 from OWC. I though since MOTU released the 828 thunderbolt the new drivers had to be thunderbolt aware. So I bit the proverbial bullet and bought the case. I installed the PCIe card, newest drivers and rebooted my macbook pro only to be greeted by a crash screen. I noticed that the thunderbolt cable was connected so I thought that was the reason. I disconnected it and I was able to boot into the machine, reconnected the cable, turned on my 24io and surprise...it synced with the card. I played some stuff in itunes and the 24io worked like a charm. I tested the interface in Logic, Studio One and Ableton without issue. The only issue I had was when using CueMix (it crashed). Since I don't use CueMix that's not important for me.

So to make the PCIe work you need to do the following:

1. Install the PCIe card in your enclosure. Do not connect the thunderbolt cable to the computer.
2. Install the newest OSX drivers. Reboot your machine.
3. Once back in OSX connect the thunderbolt cable...then turn on your interface.

The driver is not 100% yet but hey at least it works enough to make the 24io usable. Hope this helps.

[EMRR]

That's promising, thanks for the report. Please post any other observations that arise in the future!

[webweave]

Ouch! That's part of a solution for $500.

A great new MOTU product would be to re-release the 308 "Digital Adapter" as the "308x". Put in the new box with Thunderbolt and four Audiowire connectors. Save some space on the back for the new connectors by reducing the number of AES/EBU connectors.

[synclogic]

After a long wait and silence from MOTU for years now.... MOTU has admitted defeat on the thunderbolt - PCIe-424 question. (Although, still in an strategically "unofficial way"... Read on...). I am at the NAB convention 2014. First time on record, MOTU's booth has NO PCI based products on display, nor do they have any new products that fills the role of a HD192 or 24io, both of which are essential for the pro audio market. They are aggressively pushing the single rack 828 consumer style interfaces for audio.

I asked about thunderbolt chassis and 424 card to a MOTU rep who claimed to be senior level at MOTU and has been with company for 20+ years. He says that Apple has to take the blame for not allowing existing 424 cards to work with thunderbolt chassis. I believe him on that.

So I posed the question again, of a developing a product that allows a bridge from thunderbolt to audio wire for these legacy products, or an updated pcie424 card that would work in TB card chassis. I was pretty surprised by his answer. He got defensive and almost upset at me for asking. He kept pointing me at the 896mk3 product or the new thunderbolt 828, telling me I could expand them with lightpipe devices and get the channel count I needed. I explained that I have a rig with 3 hd192's and a 24io, and FireWire/DSP front end enabled products don't fill that void. He just got more upset. It was really disappointing for me, as I now see where MOTU really is.

I gathered that they don't think that any investment in a new TB to audio wire bridge (424 fix) would be worth it for them to develop, and they think that pushing their non pci products will fill the void for future users. They are right if you consider the "non-pro" consumer level market, but they are abandoning their pro level products with no plans to replace hd192 and 24io with comparable products.

I am now feeling exactly the same as when Apple announced they were abandoning Final Cut Pro 7 for a stupid product called final cut x, leaving their entire pro video market out to dry, after stringing us all along for 2 years.

There comes a time when a company has to choose to "save face" and develop a product (I.e a thunderbolt bridge for legacy PCIe424 users) that may be a lost leader to keep their reputations positive for their loyal base, OR cave and go completely for profit driven motives and abandon a part of their loyal users, on the gamble that the positives will eventually overcome the negatives.

I think we are seeing what MOTU has chosen. I personally think they have made the wrong choice. I would certainly have been willing to shell out another $1000 for such a bridge type product, since I love how my current gear sounds and I don't want to change my rig, cables, etc. So, being that every town or community has a pretty close nit music scene. ( I live in Nashville), many respected people will be more than happy to speak their mind on how they feel about being abandoned by MOTU. That will result in a lot of lost sales for ALL of their products, not just those related to PCI and thunderbolt.

I for one, am now in that camp. I tried to be fair, and can fully understand the technical reasons behind this problem, however, I think that MOTU should been forthcoming in their message to the community all along, instead of the silence about it. Even if they didn't have a definitive answer. I now feel like the silence was intentional, and possibly for deceptive reasons. Possibly, to hide the fact that they planned to drop the PCI card based products all along and wanted to make sure they sold out of their existing stick before people figured it out.

I will be very reluctant to buy any MOTU products from this point on....just for they way they chose to handle this issue. Sad since I have personally has spent $20000 plus on MOTU gear/software, and have recommended it countless times to many many clients and industry counterparts.

Not proud of MOTU.

[charlesaustin]

After a long wait and silence from MOTU for years now.... MOTU has admitted defeat on the thunderbolt - PCIe-424 question. (Although, still in an strategically "unofficial way"... Read on...). I am at the NAB convention 2014. First time on record, MOTU's booth has NO PCI based products on display, nor do they have any new products that fills the role of a HD192 or 24io, both of which are essential for the pro audio market. They are aggressively pushing the single rack 828 consumer style interfaces for audio.

I asked about thunderbolt chassis and 424 card to a MOTU rep who claimed to be senior level at MOTU and has been with company for 20+ years. He says that Apple has to take the blame for not allowing existing 424 cards to work with thunderbolt chassis. I believe him on that.

So I posed the question again, of a developing a product that allows a bridge from thunderbolt to audio wire for these legacy products, or an updated pcie424 card that would work in TB card chassis. I was pretty surprised by his answer. He got defensive and almost upset at me for asking. He kept pointing me at the 896mk3 product or the new thunderbolt 828, telling me I could expand them with lightpipe devices and get the channel count I needed. I explained that I have a rig with 3 hd192's and a 24io, and FireWire/DSP front end enabled products don't fill that void. He just got more upset. It was really disappointing for me, as I now see where MOTU really is.

I gathered that they don't think that any investment in a new TB to audio wire bridge (424 fix) would be worth it for them to develop, and they think that pushing their non pci products will fill the void for future users. They are right if you consider the "non-pro" consumer level market, but they are abandoning their pro level products with no plans to replace hd192 and 24io with comparable products.

I am now feeling exactly the same as when Apple announced they were abandoning Final Cut Pro 7 for a stupid product called final cut x, leaving their entire pro video market out to dry, after stringing us all along for 2 years.

There comes a time when a company has to choose to "save face" and develop a product (I.e a thunderbolt bridge for legacy PCIe424 users) that may be a lost leader to keep their reputations positive for their loyal base, OR cave and go completely for profit driven motives and abandon a part of their loyal users, on the gamble that the positives will eventually overcome the negatives.

I think we are seeing what MOTU has chosen. I personally think they have made the wrong choice. I would certainly have been willing to shell out another $1000 for such a bridge type product, since I love how my current gear sounds and I don't want to change my rig, cables, etc. So, being that every town or community has a pretty close nit music scene. ( I live in Nashville), many respected people will be more than happy to speak their mind on how they feel about being abandoned by MOTU. That will result in a lot of lost sales for ALL of their products, not just those related to PCI and thunderbolt.

I for one, am now in that camp. I tried to be fair, and can fully understand the technical reasons behind this problem, however, I think that MOTU should been forthcoming in their message to the community all along, instead of the silence about it. Even if they didn't have a definitive answer. I now feel like the silence was intentional, and possibly for deceptive reasons. Possibly, to hide the fact that they planned to drop the PCI card based products all along and wanted to make sure they sold out of their existing stick before people figured it out.

I will be very reluctant to buy any MOTU products from this point on....just for they way they chose to handle this issue. Sad since I have personally has spent $20000 plus on MOTU gear/software, and have recommended it countless times to many many clients and industry counterparts.

Not proud of MOTU.

Really sad to hear, I very much liked their pci stuff... I will have to be on the lookout for other companies.

Well thats all folks, I'm out......

Not on DP though, the program kicks butt!!!

[mikehalloran]

Again, name one PCIe audio card that works with a TB expansion chassis.

You can't. None exist.

One company announced they may be able to get one of their cards to work if they can update the firmware to be compatible. That was over 6 months ago. Since then, nothing - not even an announcement at NAMM that they are making progress. They did announce there is no chance that any of their other cards will work.

I will have to be on the lookout for other companies

Let us know if you find one.

[charlesaustin]

Again, name one PCIe audio card that works with a TB expansion chassis.

You can't. None exist.

One company announced they may be able to get one of their cards to work if they can update the firmware to be compatible. That was over 6 months ago. Since then, nothing - not even an announcement at NAMM that they are making progress. They did announce there is no chance that any of their other cards will work.

I will have to be on the lookout for other companies

Let us know if you find one.

Appreciate the sarcasm but their current thunderbolt offerings simply do not offer what I need. I have not even looked into other companies as I was sure they would offer some audiowire to thunderbolt solution. Apparently they are not.

[mikehalloran]

No sarcasm. Just the same answers to the same questions over and over and over and... I was quite serious.

There will not be an AW-PCIe to TB solution. TB is three years old and MOTU should have announced by now if it was going to happen.

I agree that there should be a replacement for the Audio Wire products but here's the thing: No one has announced one. Even Avid's $6K TB unit is only 8 channels and can't do what some of MOTU's AW products can. The other products from other makers are the same as the 828x - a TB port where there used to be FW.

And it doesn't have to be Thunderbolt. USB 3 has more than enough bandwidth so to handle everything that a fully loaded 424 card can with any four devices you want to connect. With the slow adoption of TB in the PC side, USB 3 makes a lot more sense. Still, the nMP has 6 TB ports and only one USB 3 bus with 4 ports.

No one has announced, let alone shipped anything with that capability. So, if you hear that someone is developing, do let us know.

Till then, whining about how you expected something by now... Welcome to the club. Grab a stick.

Me?

[crescentoon55]

Glad I purchased a mid 2010 mac pro two years ago... as for MOTU, I have already gone over to LYNX.... goodbye.

[Ric4001]

A user above posted that he got his PCIe card to work with a Helios thunderbolt chassis. On the magma.com site, in their PCIe card compatability list, they list two MOTU PCIe video cards as having thunderbolt drivers compatible with the Magma thunderbolt chassis. So it seems it would take very little work, if any, for MOTU to release official drivers that will permit us to put our PCIe cards in a thunderbolt chassis (and, indeed, the existing drivers appear to already work that way unofficially based on the post above, so it may just be the official support of that configuration that we need). So with a simple driver release or confirmation, MOTU can keep all existing PCIe users happy and in the MOTU family. If MOTU has done one thing right all these years, it has been keeping its drivers current for all legacy products, which is more than I can say for most audio interface makers.