PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

[James Steele]

Does anybody know of any other audio interface company that sold audio interface comprised of a PCIe card and separate interface that has announced plans to make a TB solution to attach interfaces that would normally be attached to the PCIe card to the new MacPros?

I'm wondering if there's any other manufacturer that is in a comparable situation where they have users expecting them to take a technology that is being obsoleted by Apple and make it work on newer computers? Or is MOTU unique in this conundrum?

[charlesaustin]

Business do indeed have to make a profit.

How much do you suppose they could sell a TB --> PCIe breakout box for?

I would think $500 would be a fair price. Though I would really hope it is a TB to Audiowire box. That would allow people with pci/pci-x/pci-e to all buy the same product.

I would buy one the day it came out.


Also, everyone keeps mentioning the mac pro. I would much rather save a lot of $$$ and buy a mac mini with TB. It sure would outperform a lot of the older macs, and let us keep up with updates etc.

[James Steele]

Business do indeed have to make a profit.

How much do you suppose they could sell a TB --> PCIe breakout box for?

I would think $500 would be a fair price. Though I would really hope it is a TB to Audiowire box. That would allow people with pci/pci-x/pci-e to all buy the same product.

I would buy one the day it came out.


Also, everyone keeps mentioning the mac pro. I would much rather save a lot of $$$ and buy a mac mini with TB. It sure would outperform a lot of the older macs, and let us keep up with updates etc.

My bad. Was trying to not muddy the waters with the AudioWire term but that's what I meant. Yeah... a box that could connect to TB and would have AudioWire sockets on it. In essence, it would be a 424e card inside an external breakout box.

Again, though, the question I posed earlier remains: is ANY manufacturer besides MOTU in a situation where they have rackmountable audio interfaces that connect to their own proprietary PCIe cards and have a user base clamoring for them to provide a TB substitute for the now obsolete PCIe cards? I'm thinking MOTU may be in a rather unique quandary here.

[mikehalloran]

How many people know if Thunderbolt supports the entire Audiowire Spec? Or USB-3?

I don't.

If TB or USB-3 doesn't support the entire AW spec as MOTU uses it than the bridge that people are seeking isn't technically possible.

TB supports only a fraction of the FireWire spec. Enough to support what audio mfrs use, apparently - this is why adapters generally work. There are FW devices that do not work with the TB adapter.

[EMRR]

Man, I had a big old post that I thought went through earlier, but it ain't here. Oh well.

The gist was that MOTU's lack of comment on the situation is bad for public perception of the company. The UA folks may have been disgruntled, but they were given a definite statement concerning the need to move on. A lack of statement fuels a certain level of hope, which can be damaging when it doesn't play out. Nip it in the bud, as they say.

It would seem (what do I know) that current system specs must be such that the processing power on the PCI card isn't needed these days. A translator interface would seem possible now, if you accept that observation. It would make MOTU appear to be heroes. But would it cover the bottom line?

As some one else said elsewhere, rarely (never?) has it been good practice to buy an old computer to move forward in pro audio. It may seem so in the short term, but the passage of time has almost always shown the fallacy. I recall the transition from PCIx to PCIe, and the lack of MOTU cards for a period. During that time many dealers had old mac systems marked up to much higher prices than the current offerings!

[James Steele]

How many people know if Thunderbolt supports the entire Audiowire Spec? Or USB-3?

I don't.

If TB or USB-3 doesn't support the entire AW spec as MOTU uses it than the bridge that people are seeking isn't technically possible.

TB supports only a fraction of the FireWire spec. Enough to support what audio mfrs use, apparently - this is why adapters generally work. There are FW devices that do not work with the TB adapter.

Well, I guess it seems to me that if it's theoretically possible for MOTU to make a new 424card with new firmware that could work in a TB-to-PCIe expasion chassis, then theoretically could you not make a powered breakout box that was essentially a TB expansion chassis housing a single PCIe-424 card with new firmware? It seems like it would be technically possible. Just don't know that it would make a lot of sense for MOTU. I'd definitely be one of the people that would pay for something like that. Someone threw out a $499 figure. It would be worth it to people with an investment in MOTU Audiowire interfaces.

I still think they could sell a newer 828x with some Audiowire ports on the back, and really we coudln't get too angry with them over that could we? Seems like part of the grip might be nothing so far with XLRs? Just TRS? Would be great if they made a TB version of the HD192. I love mine.

[James Steele]

Man, I had a big old post that I thought went through earlier, but it ain't here. Oh well.

The gist was that MOTU's lack of comment on the situation is bad for public perception of the company. The UA folks may have been disgruntled, but they were given a definite statement concerning the need to move on. A lack of statement fuels a certain level of hope, which can be damaging when it doesn't play out. Nip it in the bud, as they say.

Maybe they just haven't decided what to do yet. Maybe they're being a little more deliberate about it. You mention UA. Well, if you read UA's explanation, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the same issue UA faced with their UAD-2 cards (save for the OCTO) must apply to the PCIe-424. The PCIe-424 doesn't have flashable firmware. Seems like that's prett definitive.

It would seem (what do I know) that current system specs must be such that the processing power on the PCI card isn't needed these days.

I don't know for sure. I think for Direct Hardware playthough some of that onboard DSP on the card is needed. Maybe not. But I'd suspect it might be.

A translator interface would seem possible now, if you accept that observation. It would make MOTU appear to be heroes. But would it cover the bottom line?

That seems to be the issue... would it make sense for them financially. We went through similar discussion about MOTU making their own multifader control surface for DP that improves upon current third party solutions. It was my contention then that the potential sales might not make it worth it. Same might be true with this, with the added reality that a translate box, priced significantly less than an interface itself, would hurt sales of MOTU's TB interfaces... or even FW interfaces for that matter. Let's say MOTU makes a (relatively) cheap TB-to-Audiowire box, and now people are going around scooping up used 2408s, HD192, 24I/Os, etc on Craigslist to hook up to their trashcan MacPros. It would certainly enhance the value of those units used, but how does MOTU get market penetration with their new TB audio interfaces in that scenario? How much money could they lose for "goodwill"? I think if I were running MOTU, I'd opt for making another more full featured TB interface... like the HD192x. And then maybe I'd stick some Audiowire ports on the back of them. That's just me. Love me or hate me, I see the business angle MOTU is dealing with. They need to get their NEW product selling, not just used product.

As some one else said elsewhere, rarely (never?) has it been good practice to buy an old computer to move forward in pro audio. It may seem so in the short term, but the passage of time has almost always shown the fallacy. I recall the transition from PCIx to PCIe, and the lack of MOTU cards for a period. During that time many dealers had old mac systems marked up to much higher prices than the current offerings!

Depends if your "old" computer happens to be a "better" computer and what you need it for. The reality is that relatively few people are rushing out to buy the newest MacPros. I have a MacPro 4,1. I can upgraded it to a hexcore for $400-500. But I'm not doing crazy amounts of VIs etc.

Of course consider this: the complaint is MOTU's PCIe-424 card doesn't work in an expansion chassis. That's an expensive solution right there. How much IS an expansion chassis? So let's say MOTU released new PCIe-424 card that worked in an expansion chassis. You get your new MacPro... you need to buy the new PCIe-424 card... what is that $300 if they do a trade in? How much is an expansion chassis? $600? That expansion chassis is going to be lonely since UAD-2 cards aren't going to work in it? You're just going to put the PCIe-424 in it? So you could have $900 sunk into an expansion chassis and updated PCIe-424 card. Now it seems more and more like spending $1000+ on a new TB MOTU interface with Audiowire ports on the back makes a whole lot of sense.

[EMRR]

I would agree that the cost of an expansion chassis is highly undesirable. What potentially offsets it would be the ability to use more TB Macs with the same interface system, such as a Mini or iMac at the studio and a laptop for remotes/home/etc.

Or you jump ship and use another suppliers TB/USB/etc interface without an expansion chassis. Related, I can't see spending for a MADI interface either.

I really like interfaces loaded with TRS or XLR, such that standard cabling can be used anywhere, replaced or fabricated in the field, etc. The MOTU PCI line gave us that, and it gripes me to find no comparable replacement out there.

[mikehalloran]

I really like interfaces loaded with ... it gripes me to find no comparable replacement out there.

Despite all the whining about lack of compatibility, that is the real issue.

TB and usb 3 each have the bandwidth to combine a 24i, 2408, 192 and a video box and put them into one box with plenty of bandwidth for a few expansion units. Overkill? Probably but the potential is there.

To date, no one has stepped up to the plate or even announced plans to do so. That new video box from MOTU is a step in the right direction.

[Ric4001]

Does anybody know of any other audio interface company that sold audio interface comprised of a PCIe card and separate interface that has announced plans to make a TB solution to attach interfaces that would normally be attached to the PCIe card to the new MacPros?

I'm wondering if there's any other manufacturer that is in a comparable situation where they have users expecting them to take a technology that is being obsoleted by Apple and make it work on newer computers? Or is MOTU unique in this conundrum?

Isn't this what Apogee did with its Symphony thunderbolt adapter? The Apogee thunderbolt adapter works not only with the newer Symphony interfaces, but also all of the older Apogee interfaces that had a Symphony card installed and that connected to the Symphony PCI cards. The thunderbolt adapter replaced the PCI card.

[James Steele]

Does anybody know of any other audio interface company that sold audio interface comprised of a PCIe card and separate interface that has announced plans to make a TB solution to attach interfaces that would normally be attached to the PCIe card to the new MacPros?

I'm wondering if there's any other manufacturer that is in a comparable situation where they have users expecting them to take a technology that is being obsoleted by Apple and make it work on newer computers? Or is MOTU unique in this conundrum?

Isn't this what Apogee did with its Symphony thunderbolt adapter? The Apogee thunderbolt adapter works not only with the newer Symphony interfaces, but also all of the older Apogee interfaces that had a Symphony card installed and that connected to the Symphony PCI cards. The thunderbolt adapter replaced the PCI card.

I wasn't aware of that one, thanks. I haven't often looked at Apogee interfaces as the price point was usually higher. I wonder how much they charged for the thunderbolt adapter?

[Ric4001]

Does anybody know of any other audio interface company that sold audio interface comprised of a PCIe card and separate interface that has announced plans to make a TB solution to attach interfaces that would normally be attached to the PCIe card to the new MacPros?

I'm wondering if there's any other manufacturer that is in a comparable situation where they have users expecting them to take a technology that is being obsoleted by Apple and make it work on newer computers? Or is MOTU unique in this conundrum?

Isn't this what Apogee did with its Symphony thunderbolt adapter? The Apogee thunderbolt adapter works not only with the newer Symphony interfaces, but also all of the older Apogee interfaces that had a Symphony card installed and that connected to the Symphony PCI cards. The thunderbolt adapter replaced the PCI card.

I wasn't aware of that one, thanks. I haven't often looked at Apogee interfaces as the price point was usually higher. I wonder how much they charged for the thunderbolt adapter?

It was $999 when it first came out, but now is $499. I would gladly pay $499 for a MOTU thunderbolt to audiowire adapter so I could use my three 2408mk3s with a Mac mini or my Macbook Pro. That's a much more cost effective solution than buying a thunderbolt chassis to house my PCIe 424 card.

[Zorro in Hell]

Dose this mean there is a way to use my 2408 MK3 with my Mac Mini with a thunderbolt adapter?

[Ric4001]

Dose this mean there is a way to use my 2408 MK3 with my Mac Mini with a thunderbolt adapter?

Not until MOTU makes such a thunderbolt to audiowire adapter. And it looks like they have no interest in doing so.

[James Steele]

Dose this mean there is a way to use my 2408 MK3 with my Mac Mini with a thunderbolt adapter?

Not until MOTU makes such a thunderbolt to audiowire adapter. And it looks like they have no interest in doing so.

In fairness... has anybody from MOTU actually said they have no interest in doing this? Maybe you mentioned a source earlier, but I don't recall. I thought we're all just assuming they have no interest in this.