PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by charlesaustin »

USB-audiowire

Firewire-audiowire

TB-audiowire


Any of those would make most of the pci crowd happy.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by EMRR »

yes
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by James Steele »

synclogic wrote:I will be very reluctant to buy any MOTU products from this point on....just for they way they chose to handle this issue. Sad since I have personally has spent $20000 plus on MOTU gear/software, and have recommended it countless times to many many clients and industry counterparts.

Not proud of MOTU.
Seriously... you came to this board and make your first post just to say this? I know people are disappointed sometimes and feel they have to come to a user forum to vent, but I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Fact of the matter is, the PCI stuff has been around a very long time. I don't know how long you've had your PCI MOTU hardware, but I'm guessing you didn't buy it recently, so you probably got your money's worth out of it.

MOTU isn't the only vendor who this has bitten. I have a UAD Duo card and that's not going to be usable in a TB > PCIe expansion chassis either. And UA said, essentially, that UAD-Solo, Duo, and Quad owners are basically out of luck. I hadn't thought to go to the UA users forum, however, and write a post like yours. That said, I haven't been exactly eager to buy any more plugs for my UAD-2 Duo. I pretty much am non-plussed by the $50 off coupons UA emails me about.

Technology marches on. I wouldn't be so sure MOTU won't figure out some way to make the legacy interfaces work. But even if they don't, I don't share your dismay toward the company, nor do I jump to the conclusion that if they don't come out with some solution next week it's because they're money grubbing jerks.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by synclogic »

James Steele wrote:
synclogic wrote:I will be very reluctant to buy any MOTU products from this point on....just for they way they chose to handle this issue. Sad since I have personally has spent $20000 plus on MOTU gear/software, and have recommended it countless times to many many clients and industry counterparts.

Not proud of MOTU.
Seriously... you came to this board and make your first post just to say this? I know people are disappointed sometimes and feel they have to come to a user forum to vent, but I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Fact of the matter is, the PCI stuff has been around a very long time. I don't know how long you've had your PCI MOTU hardware, but I'm guessing you didn't buy it recently, so you probably got your money's worth out of it.

MOTU isn't the only vendor who this has bitten. I have a UAD Duo card and that's not going to be usable in a TB > PCIe expansion chassis either. And UA said, essentially, that UAD-Solo, Duo, and Quad owners are basically out of luck. I hadn't thought to go to the UA users forum, however, and write a post like yours. That said, I haven't been exactly eager to buy any more plugs for my UAD-2 Duo. I pretty much am non-plussed by the $50 off coupons UA emails me about.

Technology marches on. I wouldn't be so sure MOTU won't figure out some way to make the legacy interfaces work. But even if they don't, I don't share your dismay toward the company, nor do I jump to the conclusion that if they don't come out with some solution next week it's because they're money grubbing jerks.



James, I have followed this ONE post for over a year now... I have nothing to add to any of the various tech support issues you handle here, only this ONE issue. I have called MOTU multiple times for months, emailed MOTU support, and talked with MOTU in person at over 4 different trade shows since this has become an ongoing issue. Each time, I had gotten the same "rehearsed answer", until now. And even now, I didn't like that the rep got upset and apprehensive about my very very legitamate questions. So, Yes, I am venting, but not just for me, but also for everyone else that follows this thread. Like I said, it is the way MOTU handled this issued that I (and probably many). have a problem with.

You mention UAD, yet they admitted early on that they had a firmware issue that they could not resolve with products that had already released, and believed they would never work in TB chassis. But, since then, have released a redeeming product, with the octo card by updating its firmware in production. Yes, I have several installs of those too. UAD answered my questions about these issues in forthcoming way on the phone from the first call, and have now fixed the issue.... Admitted an expensive fix, but fixed.

You ask how old my gear is: some is original 1296's, 2408 mk3's and HD192s, 10 plus of those, all purchased at different times, over many years. Besides my own room, I recommend gear and manage installs for several corporate audio suites. These rooms are constantly being updated. Some are waiting to move to the new Mac Pro, for video rendering reasons, but are stuck now, because we placed MOTU PCI audio io in the suites, only a year or so ago...

Why is this important, because this ONE issue being solved then makes ALL of that gear usable again doesn't it, so what does it matter when it was purchased. MOTU still services the gear I am talking about. They still list it on the site new to buy. In our case, Investment has been made for cable rigging for TT patch bays, and rack placement for all of the installed MOTU gear. That is another expense that likely will have to be redone on replacing it.

So again, the reason I say that I won't recommend or purchase MOTU gear again, is that I have to answer the questions of my customers and clients, and it is NOT acceptable to make assumptions for over a year for MOTU. And if MOTU had said from beginning of the questions, that these cards would likely never work, it would have chosen another product at that point and would had NO issues with MOTU. MOTU never said that 424s would likely not ever work, they didn't say, we are working on, they DID say , "we know about the issue." That's all we got for a year... MOTU's rehearsed non-responsive answer is the reason why this one thread is as long lived and extensive as it is.

For the record.... I would be GLAD if someone (event MOTU) solved this issue, as it would help me save face with some of my clients. And when I say solved, I mean fully supported solved, because that's the only way it will fly for me. But, at this point, I am NOT expecting it to happen, from what I heard from the rep at NAB.

You are the admin here, you could just remove my post if you like. I posted it because I think that people who click this thread should gain from the experience I am having with this issue. Isn't that what this board is for?
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by bayswater »

It makes no sense for a company like MOTU to keep bridging to new technologies unless it's really simple to do. But we know it's not simple, and might be impossible. At best it will be expensive, and it's unlikely the investment could be recovered. It's not in the interest of a company like MOTU to keep very old stuff working, rather than sell new equipment. I can see why they'd get annoyed after hearing the same question over and over.

But if you think this technology problem is serious, it is but a blip, of no consequence, and probably the least of MOTU's technology problems. It won't be long before computers themselves, as we know them, will be a niche product.

If you know someone who works for one of the larger makers of computers in their electronic recycling departments, ask about their capacity forecasts for the next 5 to 10 years in North America. The answer is that it hits zero not long from now. The product life cycle stage for desktops has long been in "harvest" mode, and laptops are at the "mature" stage.

Soon, we can all enjoy a thread on MOTU's failure to make the 2408 Mk1 compatible with my new Apple neural implant media processor. Meanwhile anyone dependent on functioning audio equipment for making a living needs to become familiar with the principles described here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_continuity
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by James Steele »

In response, everyone is always telling me what this board is for. That's interesting. You mentioned tech support. Well actually this really wasn't primarily supposed to be a tech support board, but isn't that what they all become? Rather than a place for users to share techniques, etc., and ideas for using DP, it's a place to "take" when one has a problem pop up on the board as a question and disappear, or in your case, lurk for a year on a topic and then only post to express your displeasure about MOTU and vent for a while.

Certainly you realize no technology lasts forever. I'm assuming you made your money back on your interfaces by now? Did you expect that they would work with the latest Macs forever? How about your external SCSI drives? How are those holding up after Apple dropped SCSI as a standard? Point is that kind of thing happens. Your existing MOTU hardware will work just dandy for years unless you absolutely must upgrade your machine to the newest MacPro. Is that realistically something you're doing soon? For all your rooms?

Maybe MOTU didn't make a statement precisely as to what they're going to do. Maybe you were waiting for MOTU to stand up and say "the cards won't work in TB to PCIe expansion chassis!" As you acknowledge, it wasn't exactly MOTU's fault on this one. And as I said, I'm not convinced that they may not be figuring out just what they'll do. MOTU is rather cagey about their future plans. The fact that they've managed to survive, if not thrive, as a small company through a rough economy while others have fallen by the wayside, may be in no small part to the fact that they play the cards close to the vest. To the frustration of the end users of course.

At the end of the day, you sometimes have to use your own smarts and powers of deduction. If you've read some of the threads on this board and are aware of the UAD announcement regarding their PCIe cards, you would know that due to a change Apple made, no PCIe cards will work right in a TB to PCIe expansion chassis without some sort of firmware upgrade, or an entirely new card would have to be designed. So right there, that should have given you some clue.

At the end of the day, if MOTU makes some sort of solution available, that would be great. I've personally spoken to people I know there and offered a suggestion that I think would be good for the end user AS WELL as MOTU's bottom line. I'm not going to describe it here, but the people I KNOW at MOTU are not dismissive about this issue. If they can find a way to make the end user happy in a way that doesn't completely cannibalize sales of new TB interfaces, I think they would. They also have to justify the additional engineering expense, both on the hardware side and the software driver side, to make it all work. To stay in business a company has to balance their desire to keep supporting existing hardware against keeping up a healthy revenue stream of selling new units. That's just the reality of it.

As for deleting your post, or your suggestion that I might, that's just silly. We're grown ups here. You show up, first post to the board, expressing your rather forceful opinion about how disappointed you are about MOTU. Fine. I'm going to express my opinion as well, that I think you're being overly harsh on the subject. Either way, welcome to the board. Perhaps after this contribution of yours to the community here, you might stick around and share something constructive or answer a question for a newbie, etc. It was my hope when I created this board that our little community here might be more than a venting ground for disgruntled users, but I suppose I hoped for too much.

It's time for me to contemplate requiring registering to read the message base (like I used to do) and preventing the board from being crawled by Google.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by charlesaustin »

James Steele wrote:In response, everyone is always telling me what this board is for. That's interesting. You mentioned tech support. Well actually this really wasn't primarily supposed to be a tech support board, but isn't that what they all become? .

I think you should take that as a compliment for your site. It is THE DP forum (as far as I know). Also, I think posters (myself included) hope that something said here will be echoed by others and listened to by the people over at MOTU. It seem like the only way to get our voice heard.

I can totally see your point that your vision of a helpful community style space..... turns into bitchfest.

I think we all appreciate your time and effort, even if our posts don't convey the message.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by James Steele »

My point is that you can create a space on the internet and it will be turned into whatever people want to use it for. Some people wrongly see this site as nothing more than a megaphone with which to shout at MOTU over their particular pet issue. They assume that MOTU reads *everything* here. You can't always make that assumption. MOTU employees stop by on their own time and read and sometimes they comment. I have taken pains to try and clarify that this is a user-run forum and it is not run by MOTU, because some people assume venting a grievance here is the same as communicating directly to MOTU and you can't assume that. I think there is a suggestions@motu.com email address that might be useful there.

I can tell you that I don't necessarily take pride in the fact that user forums always end up becoming tech support forums where people only go when they have a problem, often with the intent to get what they need and then leave, never paying it forward by sharing actual workflow tips or answering questions for others. Take, take, take. Gimme, gimme. That's the internet for you. Fact is, I resisted starting this board. I also run the MOTU-MAC mailing list hosted at Yahoo! People started clamoring for me to create an online forum. Why? Because they didn't want to be bothered with the party-line aspect of a mail list. They had to read through emails. "I don't want all those emails in my inbox... I want to get what I need quickly." There's the take, take, take again. All of which works against the sense of community, and makes it simply transactional.

The internet is an odd sort of place. Forums like this only work because there is a small minority of people who us it that are willing to give of their own time to dispense advice and answer questions, etc. For others, as I've stated, the only thing that motivates them to break their lurking status is to use the board to vent their frustration at MOTU as a company. After that "contribution" to the community, they go back to lurking.

Any way, we've established that some people are going to be upset at MOTU IF MOTU doesn't come up with a way for people to use MOTU's old technology with Apple's newest technology. And if that happens, they're going to discourage their associates from using MOTU interfaces. So we'll have to see what MOTU does and if user complaints/threats in this forum will have any impact on it. I have two PCI-based MOTU interfaces: an HD192 and a 24I/O. Both of which weren't exactly cheap. I, too, have an investment in them. That said, I can't get myself too worked up about it if these aren't going to work with Thunderbolt. Frankly, I don't need the power of the newest MacPros and can't see the need for a while, so I'll be good for some years to come. When I finally have to make the move, I'll have to deal with it then.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by sefanzed »

Regarding the Thunderbolt issue, I have to add that if MOTU doesn't offer a way forward for what we would all assume is a pretty deep customer base, they're in danger of losing future interface sales to competing manufacturers. Speaking for myself, I have 3 HD192s hardwired to a patch bay and console. I've ordered a new Mac Pro and for now will be using an expensive KVM dual monitor switch to keep my current hardware in play. However, since MOTU's current TB interface line is very thin, I may jump ship to other hardware platforms as MOTU currently doesn't offer any alternatives to their established line of products. In my case, rewiring harnesses, which is an expensive alternative, may be inevitable; however, if that's the only way forward I'll be looking at a wide range alternative products. Naturally, I'd like to continue supporting MOTU but, in the present set of circumstances that may not be possible. I've heard through the "grapevine" that a "bug" in apple's OS prevents MOTU from developing any thunderbolt aware drivers that will work with external PCIe cages. But seeing that other companies have successfully made their drivers work (at least Sonnett's products) that excuse on the surface seems a bit thin. While I'm not discounting that, I am hopeful that the team at MOTU will solve the problem eventually. If not, they risk losing a considerable number of their customer base (especially professionals) to other Non-MOTU options.
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PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by James Steele »

It's not a "bug". Apple made a change in how PCIe devices are addressed over TB to allow for more devices. Older cards CANNOT work without a FIRMWARE upgrade. UA made a post about this somewhere saying as much. That's why all the UAD-2 cards with the exception of the OCTO aren't going to work either. It's not just an "excuse."

Anyway, your and everyone else who is a PCI user may have to buy new interfaces if they decide to get the new MacPro. It's up to the individual to decide at that point whether they will buy MOTU or another brand. If the MOTU product offers good value, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another MOTU interface as I've found they work well with DP—CueMix, direct hardware playthrough, etc. IMHO, intentionally avoiding MOTU TB audio interfaces in the future solely to "punish" the company is unjustified and misguided. YMMV
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by sefanzed »

James,
I think you misunderstood me. What I intended to point out was that if I have to purchase all new interfaces I'll look for hardware that fits my needs. At this point in time MOTU only offers a single TB solution (not including their video box) and nothing that compares to the hd 192 (nor many of their other "legacy" boxes) in terms of audio outputs, connectors, et. al. In my situation, I don't need mic preamps and again, at this point in time several other companies have more TB options to choose from, comparatively speaking. I'd have no intention of punishing MOTU, in fact I look forward to seeing their other TB solutions when they arrive; however I meant to say that others, including myself now have many options to choose from... A far cry from when I purchased my hardware, as there was basically only protools hardware out there. It may very well be that MOTU has decided to limit their future hardware offerings if that area of their business isn't producing revenue up to their expectations, which is a perfectly valid business decision. Also, the term "bug" in Apple's OS was verbatim from Magic Dave himself when I spoke to him at NAB earlier this month. That was how he described it.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by James Steele »

I have no idea what MOTU intends to offer as far as TB interfaces in the future. I haven't looked lately, but to my knowledge there's not a glut of them out there, nor anything that like an HD192 with XLR ins/outs, etc.

I re-read your post and I understand now what you were trying to say, so my apologies if I made assumptions. There's been a few posts on here from people thumping their chests about jumping ship unless MOTU offers a way to use the old PCIe-based audio interfaces with Thunderbolt. Perhaps it was your implication that a software solution, like a new driver, might be possible and MOTU just wasn't going to offer it for whatever reason. And as far as Magic Dave calling it a "bug"... he may just be describing it quickly without getting bogged down in the weeds on stuff that's not important. Or, it's very likely, he may know of another issue I haven't heard about. I can say this much... he wouldn't lie. Of course one developers "bug" is touted as a feature. Apple, from what I heard, changed the spec for PCIe over TB to address more devices and this change was not backwardly compatible with older PCIe cards such that just a new driver could be written. Again, UA said it required firmware updates and AFAIK MOTU PCIe-424 cards are not flashable. MOTU would have to either replace a chip on those cards (if it's even possible) or design a new PCIe-424 card which would make no sense because MacPros with slots are out of production now.

Personally, I'll just publicly tell you what I've suggested to MOTU privately: I think the best solution would be for MOTU to offer an updated TB interface that would have AudioWire connectors on the back. In essence, if you bought a new interface, you could use your old interfaces as expanders, much like you can hang an older serial MTP off a USB MTP/AV. That way, they still sell new interfaces and penetrate the market with their new stuff, but the old stuff can still be useful.

I think there's a lot of good business reasons for them not immediately releasing some sort of cheap breakout box that converts TB to AudioWire. It's not fun for end users, but I think sometimes they have to operate as a business to survive and they need to get their TB interfaces out there. I think MOTU adding 2-3 AudioWire connectors to the back of their TB interfaces would be a good compromise.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by mikerbaker »

Well, i'm sure that a breakout interface could be designed - it would be no more/or just as convenient as a TB to pcie chassis as regards to cabling!
About 70 - 80% of studios i know of are using motu interfaces - ok - some of it firewire - but the majority on pci/pcie 424 systems.
Its a little harsh on motu users to shell out another 1k$/£ on another unit! - a few hundred bucks makes it more appealing and would keep the customers loyal to motu.
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by James Steele »

mikerbaker wrote:Well, i'm sure that a breakout interface could be designed - it would be no more/or just as convenient as a TB to pcie chassis as regards to cabling!
About 70 - 80% of studios i know of are using motu interfaces - ok - some of it firewire - but the majority on pci/pcie 424 systems.
Its a little harsh on motu users to shell out another 1k$/£ on another unit! - a few hundred bucks makes it more appealing and would keep the customers loyal to motu.
Like I said... it was only my thought/suggestion. I think what keeps being overlooked here is that keeping the customers loyal to MOTU is one thing, but if nobody's buying anything or they fail to sell enough TB audio interfaces, they're going to have trouble keeping the lights on. Business do indeed have to make a profit.

How much do you suppose they could sell a TB --> PCIe breakout box for? What sort of profit could they make on one? Currently how many users are running the newest MacPros? Would it cannibalize sales of TB interfaces and prevent them from getting new TB interfaces out on the market? How many PCIe users are there and would such a breakout box be something they might potentially LOSE money on after the cost of development and manufacturing is considered? If they sold something like that at say $299 a unit and could make $99 profit on each... how many units would they need to sell to recover costs? Man... I hate to be the capitalist in the room, but...

I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR MOTU HERE... I KNOW NOTHING OF THEIR PLANS

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, because they do have to consider their bottom line and we might not always like it, but at least they're not Avid!
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Re: PCIe 424 + Thunderbolt adapter?

Post by EMRR »

I think they would sell both bridge devices and new TB devices to cover all bases, while extending a hand of good customer service to legacy users. But, I'm not the one paying the bills with that decision. As we can tell already in this thread, silence on big issues like this equate to a negative customer experience in regards to customer service, no matter how much the user likes the old product. I'd be really surprised if they aren't balancing that in the equation; on one hand it would appear (in the face of silence) that they are indeed willfully choosing to avoid addressing an issue that other companies have addressed in a seemingly more straightforward manner. It's not good for public perception, no matter how you spin it. I'd love to see either the bridge device that keeps my old interfaces running with a new computer, or the new full service TB device that replaces a 24io with a new computer. So far I get neither, and it's making me look at other vendors for hardware, for better or worse.

As to the 'complain-fest' aspect, I'll go back to the day I had to start joining company-centric forums as a sad day for customer service. I felt like there was a time when one could get direct customer service interaction to solve problems. There came a day when those avenues mostly dried up, and many forums became defacto customer support, as customer-to-customer support. Yes, there's a lot more available, tips, sharing of methods, etc, but we all know the vast majority are readers more than posters until they have a specific problem to solve, or gripe to air. The gripes are hotter if they've been trying to find bigfoot (customer service of old). I've learned a lot here, but admit it's the problems I might have that get me here the fastest. It's really the nature of these places it seems, especially when a place is the only apparent outlet. Thanks for having us here, it's a good thing, even with the gripes.
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