BLACK LION OR LUCID GENX6-96?

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Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. for Mac OSX
msmith92
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BLACK LION OR LUCID GENX6-96?

Post by msmith92 »

so, what would you do? get the Lucid GenX6-96 or have the clocks modified on my 2408mk3 and 1296?

here's the lucid link
http://www.lucidaudio.com/index.php?Sho ... &Show2=220
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo »

I have a Lucid with an unmodified 2408 and I'm happy with the clocking.

There are enough Raves about the Black Lion retrofit to make it well worth considering. For a great price, it gives your interface a second wind. I don't know I'd buy a new MOTU interface and then send it right back out to be *fixed*. Something about that doesn't sit well in concept. An older unit? Sure.

If you are considering the word clock at all, I'd say get it. Should you choose to change your interface later in any way-- either the BL-MOTU upgrade or a different brand of interface altogether, then you still have a dedicated word clock.

just a hobbit's 2 pence.
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msmith92
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Post by msmith92 »

since you've got one and you like it i think i'll go the lucid route. the mod thing seems a bit frightening still. thanks again.
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ghia
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Post by ghia »

Hey,

I have a 3 month old 24 i/o that I'm sending to Black Lion next week.
For me I think it is the most cost effective solution. Just to upgrade to a better clock (ie Big Ben etc..) would cost more than the analog & clock upgrade I'm getting done. I am shooting from the hip a bit as I don't have really any time logged with the 24 i/o. The reports I have read, and a few people I've actually spoken with praise the BlackLion upgrade so much that I'm taking the plunge. I also like dealing with companies like Black Lion. I thought about going the clock route first, but I hear the difference in the analog upgrade is dramatic, and the spec on the clock upgrade holds its own with the better stand alone clocks.

greg.................
gHia
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo »

I have a 2408mk2 that I might have upgraded at some point, but one of the big deciding factors with respect with the word clock necessity is that I've got other units that require the word clock. The Lucid was the only way to go to get everything clocked together properly. I've had my eye on Big Ben for a while, but the Lucid hasn't given me any problems at all.

The BlackLion upgrade is certainly cost effective, but it solves only one problem related to the MOTU units. The Lucid solved the MOTU issue plus others.

Underneath all that which motivates some of my opinion is that I have an extensive history of buying into a lot of quick fixes that *didn't* really work. The quality of Black Lion stands apart from some of the other cash I've thrown away by taking shortcuts. But I have bought so many other compromises that didn't work as hoped and have tried to be careful about where the money goes. In a lot of cases that has meant spending more money up front on a higher end device which has actually saved moeny over the long term.

The Black Lion approach is indeed a good solution. It's just important to make sure that the right solution is being applied to the right problem.
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Post by WSVP »

Frodo wrote:
The BlackLion upgrade is certainly cost effective, but it solves only one problem related to the MOTU units. The Lucid solved the MOTU issue plus others.
Good point,

One potential issue with the Black Lion mod... I remember reading several reports or threads about the clock mod, stating that after the mod the device could no longer be synced to an external clock. This can be a big issue if you need to feed in an external digital device which does not have a word clock in. Many DAT machines fall into this category.
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ghia
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Post by ghia »

I believe that after the Mod it can still be synched as master or slave via the Word i/o port. I do not have any equipment without WC i/o so it should be fine for me...
gHia
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Post by Frodo »

I'd like to have some clarity on this clock disabling issue-- there seems to have been conflicting info about this floating around for a while; and I keep hearing both reports.

I would have no interest in trying to turn a MOTU interface into a be-all, end-all unit which reduced options for how it would be used. There are cases where a word clock may not be necessary, but even Rosetta users frequently rely upon their Big Bens-- for as great as the Rosetta is out of the box.

Was the clock disable issue an early flaw in the retrofit that got fixed later? Is it working some people's setups and not others? I'm still a little confused how this came up and how it was addressed.

The old addage that in order to be a good leader you have to be a good follower applies here. There's something wrong if a unit won't slave to clock.

ghia-- do you have anything definitive on the master/slave issue?
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ghia
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Black Lion Clock issue

Post by ghia »

Hey Frodo,
This is from the other thread about the Blaack Lion Mod
I did email Matt about the clock issue. His reply is below:

Correct--the MOTU wants to be the master in any sort of sync
situation--this was a design choice made because the MOTU's new clock has good enough specs that it's comparable to something like a Lucid or Apogee or even Lavry. I felt that, if there was an issue of needing to sync, one would want to go with the best quality clock, which would be the new MOTU
clock. Via BNC connection, this isn't an issue.
I believe that the BNC connection / Word Clock will sync just fine.

I've sent a follow up email to make sure this is correct.

Ghia 8) [/quote]
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sTuPid iS aS stUpId dOEs............

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Post by Frodo »

So, he's saying that the MOTU clock would try to be the master as long as it's connected via FW or PCI. Once the BNC is in place, it doesn't fight a WC? I think that's how I read it.

He seemed to spend so much of his explanation talking about how comparable the new MOTU clock was to other WCs, but only said via BNC it's not a problem--

At first it sounded like he was saying that his confidence in his own work eliminated the need for any use of an external WC.

I guess I was looking for something that actually said-- "it is still compatible with external WCs such as Lucid or Apogee" and not only that the mod was just as good as....

But, at least this is some encouraging news.
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zmix
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Post by zmix »

You would be well advised to read this discussion before modifying your interface, food for thought:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index. ... /0/0/5734/
msmith92
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Post by msmith92 »

i always thought that the use of a word clock was to synch up several digital devices? so, if the mod is only giving you one bnc out how do you hook up more than one digital device. also, i'm using a digimax and an octopre with digital outs and a voice master pro too and i'm bypassing all analog motu inputs anyway...which i'm guessing most people are too? so, if you get say the Lucid Genx6-96 for $349 from musicians friend it'll synch 6 devices for you and from what i hear/read it'll do it pretty darn good. seems like a more effecient route and safer if you ask me. until motu learns to step up their game i don't think a possible risky mod should be the answer when you have the option to get a "better" clock from a reliable company. or i'm just paranoid! :)
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Post by ghia »

zmix......thanx for the link. I'm 90% sure that this is the direction I should go. right or wrong I've already purchased the 24 i/o. From what I've read everyone seems pleased with the upgrade sonically, although some have issues with the sync. I'm very far away from being a tech in any sense........!! Unfortuately I've come to the conclusion that I have to rely on others knowledge and experiences as a benchmark. I do believe that there are many upgrades like this that compensate for a company cutting corners. I have my fingers crossed that I will be as satisfied as many others have with the upgrade. I may in the long run re-think it all and have to spend the big bucks to get 24 chan of ad/da that I'm happy with. I'll post my results in the following weeks.

Frodo...Here is the response to my email to BlackLion:

Hey,
What will be the downside of having the 24 i/o as the master for everything?
Can the Modded 24i/o be slaved thru the Word Clock i/o if necessary. Can it be used as Master and Slave thru the WC i/o ?

Thanks.............Greg


Greg,
The benefit of having the MOTU be the master clock is because 9 times
out of 10 our clock will sound better than any external clock you
would use with it. If you have it clocked through BNC you should not
have any problems. Windows users are the ones who have the real
problems doing that, be it a modded or unmodded unit.

Thanks
Let us know if you have any more questions
Jim Jedlicka
Black Lion Audio:
4028 1/2 N Paulina
Lower Level
Chicago IL 60613
gHia
sTuPid iS aS stUpId dOEs............

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Post by WSVP »

msmith92

If I were you I would go the Lucid route. It offers far more flexibility and security.

You already have excellent converters in the 1296. I am not sure how many inputs you need at once or what kind of preamps you are using. Many devices (Focusrite, Presonus, Mackie and others) that combine preamps and converters into one unit that you can feed digitally into the ADAT ins of your 2408 mk3. Obviously the quality and price will vary with these devices. Don't forget that spending a lot of money on great converters will not save lousy preamps. The audio chain is only as strong as its weakest link. I do not believe you necessarily need the most expensive Mic pre's, but it is advisable to have half decent ones at least.

One more thing to look at is "if" the 1296 has a separate clock from the PCI-424 card, I know the 1224 does. The clock in the 1224 is suppose to be much better than what was in the original 324 card. As I don't own a 1296 I am not sure of this but it might be worth a look.

Having both a 1296 and a 2408 mk3 you have a lot of options.
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Post by zmix »

ghia wrote:zmix......thanx for the link. I'm 90% sure that this is the direction I should go. right or wrong
That is the operative word...

This is not 'magic' the parts that MOTU used are very good. The 'corner cutting" on the 24 I/O is the converters, not the support circuitry. Look at the difference in dynamic range between the 24 I/O and the 1296 for example... these devices perform as well as the converter chip spec sheets indicate. That is impressive.

in other words you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Ask Black Lion to publish their before and after measurements for jitter and noise, and full scale performance driving a 600 ohm load.

I dare them to do so!
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