Wagner, Wagner, Wagner... The Monster...

Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory, etc...

Moderators: Frodo, FMiguelez, MIDI Life Crisis

Forum rules
Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
Post Reply
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Wagner, Wagner, Wagner... The Monster...

Post by FMiguelez »

I stumbled upon this, and if you love Wagner, like I do, I think you will enjoy it>

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/the-monster
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Wagner, Wagner, Wagner... The Monster...

Post by mikehalloran »

I agree with every word in that article.

My Wagner story took place when I agreed to sing The Wanderer in a production of Siegfried. I had auditioned for Fafner, the dragon/giant but was talked into singing Wotan. As with my vocal idol, James Morris, I agreed just to see if I could do it. Claude Heater showed up to rehearsals and I benefitted from his coaching and advice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Heater

The final act begins with a scene between Wotan and Erda. When I sang, it was over a huge orchestra and low brass. Erda sings and is accompanied by soft strings and winds. I sang it was storm and fury all over again. This scene is considered to be the most difficult for the bass voice in all of opera—I agree.

Ok, done with that, time for a scene ending and applause for the performance, right? Uh no. Transition to the scene with Siegfried, humiliation ensues, spear broken and The Wanderer slinks offstage a broken and dejected god. End scene now? Nooooo... Transition to the awakening of Brunhilda and the glorious love duet. End opera. Come out to take your bow and the audience remembers, Oh, he was in this, too.
The name of this monster was Richard Wagner
Indeed — and I thought so every night of performance.

I was double-cast so, on off nights, I was the bass principal in the orchestra. Over 4 hours (not incl intermissions) with a 5 string bass, my arms, shoulders and back were sore but we played some of the finest music ever written. Like singing, I never played two consecutive performances so my voice recovered when I played and my body recovered when I sang.

I still want to sing Fafner. You sing from backstage while a puppet does the acting. A two-page death scene after you return to mortal form and you're done.

My stroke occurred after I made plans to sing opera full time—oops!. I'll never play again and my diaphragm is partly paralyzed so the legato required for Wagner may never happen (but I see improvement year after year).

But I did have this. Damn you, Wagner — and thanks for writing it.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Wagner, Wagner, Wagner... The Monster...

Post by cuttime »

Thanks for the post, FM. It's an interesting analysis. I've tried unsuccessfully to warm up to Wagner for most of my life. Musically and orchestrally I can enjoy some aspects when I don't find it overly indulgent and meandering, but as a dramatist? I don't get it. My German is sketchy at best, despite having studied it for many years, and German poetry and drama can be impenetrable out of context. Perhaps I just haven't found the Wagner "key". Does anyone know what the key was for them?
828x MacOS 13.6.5 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Wagner, Wagner, Wagner... The Monster...

Post by mikehalloran »

cuttime wrote:Thanks for the post, FM. It's an interesting analysis. I've tried unsuccessfully to warm up to Wagner for most of my life. Musically and orchestrally I can enjoy some aspects when I don't find it overly indulgent and meandering, but as a dramatist? I don't get it. My German is sketchy at best, despite having studied it for many years, and German poetry and drama can be impenetrable out of context. Perhaps I just haven't found the Wagner "key". Does anyone know what the key was for them?
I find that approaching Wagner from a musical perspective doesn't work for many. There's a lot and trying to keep it straight without knowing the dramatic elements is often asking too much.

See a production of Der Ring properly subtitled (video) or supertitled (stage). The story is the thing and, properly hooked, it will draw most viewers in. Sex, violence, betrayal, dwarves, giants, dragons, fates, gods, mortals, prophecy, gold, power, magic... it's less confusing than Game of Thrones. Then the music makes sense as it follows the story and often tells the back story (trust me on this).

If the idea of 15 hours seems daunting, try a good production of Die Meistersinger, Wagner's only comedy. He wrote it in the middle of the Ring. The story is about a singing contest but it's really about old art vs the new. Interestingly, many of the jokes are about the new and are Wagner having fun at his own expense.

I'll look up some YouTube links this evening.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Wagner, Wagner, Wagner... The Monster...

Post by mikehalloran »

My wife and I are season ticket holders at San Francisco Opera. We've also been known to travel to Seattle and LA to see productions of Der Ring. I have a Wagner library nearly as big as my folk music and Gilbert & Sullivan libraries with many recordings, scores and books. OK, I'm a fan.

The Die Meistersinger to get if you aren't familiar with Wagner is this one. Set the subtitles to English and you're good. It used to be on YouTube but was pulled for copyright.
https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Meistersi ... stersinger

If you have Amazon Prime, there's a modern dress version from Bayreuth 2008 you can watch for free — there's a menu where you can make the subtitles appear. Reviewers are calling it the Eurotrash version but I've seen worse. The story is there even if visually unappealing.

As for Der Ring, the 1980 Boulez arrangement is all over YouTube with subtitles. Unfortunately, it is a high-concept version with a stripped down, 40 piece orchestra (boo! hiss!) and based on GB Shaw's The Perfect Wagnerite (an entertaining book where he reimagines the Ring as a commentary on the Industrial Revolution). It is possible to follow the story in spite of the production but, other than that, it's free to watch and worth every penny. It's a curiosity but not one I ever recommend for a first experience.

The recent Met and Chicago Lyric productions are good but only scenes are available on YouTube, not the complete opera. Many other versions without English subtitles, though.

An interesting recording, long a favorite of mine, is Lorin Maazel's Ring Without Words. It's a little over an hour and contains all of the major themes and leitmotivs from the Ring (can't contain them all, of course). It's been a staple of my car's CD player for many years. I just found it on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFfzwunOqak

It won't help you understand Wagner but, if you listen a few times before seeing any of it, you will notice more readily how the music integrates so tightly with the drama.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Wagner, Wagner, Wagner... The Monster...

Post by cuttime »

Thanks for the links, Mike - I will surely check them out. I actually sat through a three night Ring cycle that was on PBS in the late '80s (I think it was the Met) and I found it a real slog, but I'm always willing to educate myself.
828x MacOS 13.6.5 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
Post Reply