New Finale

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I'll be requesting my refund from Make Music tomorrow.

As you should.

I just got off the phone with Make Music sales and requested the refund. Granted, no questions asked. FWIW, I routinely make such purchases on American Express for this very reason. If you buy a dog app on Amex and the vendor refuses to refund your money, Amex will make good in most cases. They have never failed to either remedy a problem or credit my account - sometimes blocking the vendor from further transactions on any Amex card.

It's a very powerful tool I didn't need to use this time. Kudos to Make Music for that.

I'll erase F25 from my drives and just stick with F2014.5 until Finale is movie friendly again.

[mikehalloran]

Off topic, but what’s the best program to make fake book style jazz charts or simple charts/lead sheets? I don’t just mean between these two leaders in software, but any program that just makes decent lead sheets that cn enter via MIDI? ( and a program Above the level of DP

Perhaps this can be a new topic. It might get more response since the answers won't be limited to Finale.

Best program? It depends on your needs.

If doing actual Broadway charts, you want Finale. There are plugins that let you conform to rehearsal and performance standards. It's what all the other kids are using for that reason.

Sibelius is used by many. I don't really know Notion.

MuseScore is free but cannot do real time entry—a deal killer for most. It doesn't have a Jazz notation font but there are ways to use handwritten text fonts—easy to find for free. I've never tested its ability to import MIDI. It can import MusicXML and DP 9 can export same. It may be what you want if you can live with its limitations and one can't knock the price.

Encore is old and feature limited. Has a handwritten Jazz style notation and text font. Its MIDI import is quite good—better than Finale, IMO. Supports real time entry. Small and light, quick to install. MusicXML support is 1.toodamnold. It's fast to use. I use it for down and dirty simple needs such as church choir, lead sheets, praise band etc. Way, way overdue for an update that may never happen. Expensive for a new license.

Overture from Sonic Scores has potential including handwritten jazz style notation and text fonts. The latest build of v5 was released a few days ago (it might work now). Don wrote Overture for Opcode and the early versions of Encore. Users who liked the look and feel of those programs should like Overture when it's ready. It's the least expensive one to buy new at $199 intro price. I've not tried the new v.5.10 yet and don't know when I'll get to it. It does have all the features you want and the demo is fully functional. Edit: the 5.1 update promised 8/21 now has a promise date of today.
https://sonicscores.com/downloads/

Dorico is on its way but isn't here yet. Lots of anticipation but... the first version will not be able to do what you need.

If you own any of the above (except MuseScore), you qualify for crossgrade pricing of $99–$149 and reseller discounts can often be found. If not, the least expensive way may be to buy Overture even if you're not going to use it—saves $252 on the price of Finale, for example.

LilyPond is text based and the output looks very 19th C. Think old church hymnals. Free but not worth your time to check out.

[James Steele]

I don't disagree on large meter fonts. It will be the new toy and every new work will have them including choral works and I will find them more distracting than useful... and will cringe a little the first time my daughter uses them. If it makes film scores more readable, then great. Go! Be! Do! They won't be as distracting as dotted slurs and ties in anything other than a study score.

I have explored other notation software. MuseScore is free and worth every penny, IMO. They spend more time justifying why it isn't better than making it better—absolutely not ready for prime time. Did I mention it's free? Yikes!

I've never liked Finale for quick down and dirty work like lead sheets, 4-part choral and worship scores or even my Christmas book. I've been using Encore and would pay for an upgrade if it supported a later version of MusicXML than 1.ancient but I don't expect that to ever happen.

Sonic Scores Overture holds a little promise to replace Encore—same developer as was the original Opcode version. v.5 just doesn't work. I'll ask for an extension on my demo when the next build comes out but I'm not holding my breath. $99 intro price if I like it... if it works... has some of what I like about Encore.

Can't get warm to Sibelius. Just can't—still.

Doesn't Presonus have a entry into this space nowadays?

[mikehalloran]

Doesn't Presonus have a entry into this space nowadays?

Not yet but Dorico is coming, they say. The first release promises much but lacks some of the basic functions that many depend on such as the ability to create a simple lead sheet with guitar chords.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

They are supposed to add chords in the next release.

[Elektroakoustika]

like the ability do a simple guitar/vocal lead sheet?

Two years is a long ways away when you have projects to do. The first release is so limited that two years may be extremely optimistic — or not. Time will tell.

I have been buying and using Finale alternatives for many years—still do—but have never found its equal for large projects. I may finally get into it for the small stuff that I normally do in Encore. It might be as fast once I get into the workflow. I really like Finale till I find that one little thing that takes all the time in the world to figure out, ya know?

I think the first release of Dorico is aimed most at the classical music publishing area. As I belong to that area, I've never even had to create a guitar/vocal lead sheet so it's not something I would need. But I know there is a need for many and I hope they'll add it later for those that need it. (and maybe I'll need it in the future too!)

To me, the thing about Dorico that is different than the alternatives (excluding Finale and Sibelius) is that it is designed to be as powerful as Finale and Sibelius, but in a much more powerful and intuitive user interface, as well as a more streamlined approach to making scores look great right out of the box. The other alternatives (Encore. Notion, etc) never seemed to have the expansive notation that Dorico is aiming for.

After watching a walkthrough I found on YouTube of the Steinberg team presenting Dorico in Germany, I was amazed at how much simpler entering articulations, dynamics, expressive text, and more is. Plus, the have done some great programming underneath to make sure that the final product requires very little editing to make it look great. Which is huge for me as I spend hours upon hours editing Finale parts to make sure they look publish worthy (especially my larger orchestral scores).

Will Dorico be for everybody? Not a chance. Especially on day one. But I'm tired of how slow Finale is, how it is rarely what I would call "intuitive," how difficult it is to do some very simple things, how much editing I have to do to make to my scores publish-worthy, and how outdated the entire program feels. I've been using it for 13 years, and, while it has served me well in making my scores look great, I can't say I enjoy the experience (Finale 2014 still crashes whenever I open up a Finale 2012 or previous file). I'm ready for something different.

DP, on the other hand, has been a joy to work with.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Yeah, the money I retrieved from the Finale refund will certainly go towards Dorttos... I mean, Dorico (or both!)

I, too, use Finale for traditional traditional (read: classical) scores for everything from solo piano to full orchestra and everything in between. I also do lead sheets from time to time as well as arrangements for jazz bands and small ensembles.

Dorico looks very promising. Definitely worth looking into but I still MOTU would make a killer notation app with full DP integration.

Approaching my diety with the request as we speak (so to post).

[Phil O]

Someone posted a link to a Youtube review of Dorito. I think the deal breaker was the inability to edit parts before printing. Apparently you work on the score and Dorico decides what the individual parts should look like. I can't remember the details but I don't think that would work for me.

Phil

[Elektroakoustika]

Someone posted a link to a Youtube review of Dorito. I think the deal breaker was the inability to edit parts before printing. Apparently you work on the score and Dorico decides what the individual parts should look like. I can't remember the details but I don't think that would work for me.

Phil

Huh... I've been following the Dorico forum pretty closely and I know Daniel (Dorico lead) has said you can edit parts, just not extract them to separate part files. The thread below mentions how you can edit both the score and parts independently, but they are part of the same file.

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewto ... 46&t=97749

Daniel at Steinberg hasn't filled us in on how multiple instruments on the same stave produce two parts, but he has mentioned that there is something that they have been working on to make that happen.

[Phil O]

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIHN12bssu4

Go to 3:40

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I guess I'm on Finale forever. So essentially what that means is Dorito [sic] is NOT capable of engraving. For truly serious composers, arrangers, orchestrators, and publishers, that is patently untenable. I have no interest whatsoever in "auto-parts."

[Phil O]

I don't know. Some things in the link that Elektroakoustika provided seem to be in conflict with info given in the video.

[mikehalloran]

The basic problem with MakeMusic is that they want to change the way we work. Movie Window? You don't need it—if you think you do, you're wrong. Mac printing on a Mac? No, you need to do it our way. Searchable PDF? You don't need it—use our new, idiotic help center. Need scanning? We'd like to accommodate but somene got mad at us so we dropped it. Can't find what you need? Submit a report request. Don't like it? We have a 30 day refund policy.

Why are they doing this? Easy enough to understand. They want a unified version that works exactly the same on both Mac and Windows. To hell with the fact that the platforms are different; this approach costs less. Will it save as much as the bad will and lost customers? Time will tell. If Dorico adds scanning, a movie window, engraver tools and works well (big "ifs", all of them), then MM will fix Finale and it will be too little, too late.

I agree completely on dropping 32bit support but some Windows users aren't happy. They'll be less happy at the end of the year when most browsers do the same (as all announced in 2014).

MuseScore is guilty of the same nonsense. Ask about essential features and Mark gives you a lecture on why you don't need them. Oh well, at least that's free and worth every penny, IMO.

Dorico thinks they understand how people want to work. That's their big thing. Need to extract and edit parts? No... maybe later. Simle lead sheet? Who needs that (besides every church praise band leader)? Lots more of them than classical composers. Oh well, they say it's coming. Who really thinks that Dorico is going to work for most out of the box? I don't see it being a contender for at least three years—and that's only if they listen to the user base.

[Elektroakoustika]

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIHN12bssu4

Go to 3:40

This guy has never touched Dorico so I'd take everything he says with a grain of salt. He's simply "reviewing" the initial announcement of the program and is interpreting "extracting parts" as "editing parts," which are not one in the same.

I think it would be ludicrous for a program with the power of Dorico to not include individual part editing. If you watch the walkthrough Daniel Spreadbury from Steinberg did in Helsinki, he shows the split view of score and part editing (starting at 1:24:00) where he has a score and part open in the same window. He clearly says "you can work on multiple parts at the same time." To me, that pretty clearly states that you can edit the parts individually.

Here is that video from the Helsinki presentation a few months ago: https://youtu.be/jswPADssvhc

[MIDI Life Crisis]

And then there are chord names in lead sheets and other scores it can't yet produce. Whaaaaaat?