Beginning of the end for film composers?
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Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
- BKK-OZ
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Beginning of the end for film composers?
'...gives you complete control over music's three main parameters, momentum, depth, and power...'
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Cheers,
BK
…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
BK
…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Interesting. I didn't know that film composition could be reduced to three sliders. I watched several videos and learned precious little, except for hearing a few short audio clips over and over. I suppose I could just download the damn thing but instead I'll wait for someone else's reviews. I wish they could provide at least a real example to make me want to even pony up $10.
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- MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Yaaaaawn.....
Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Edits rather than compose. The three factors -- tempo, volume/compression, and EQ?
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- MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Where's the unique, contrast, passion, innovative buttons. But hey, if those mediocre film makers are happy with mediocre, already been there/done that music, go for it. I think it's a really dumb thing for really dumb film makers.
Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
I suppose it's not really any different than library music. I often hear the same tracks in different radio and TV spots and most people never even know the difference. Maybe one could think of it as library spots with a bit more variation.
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Mine goes to eleven.
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- stubbsonic
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
I think what makes this different than library music is the feature that you can automate these dynamic qualities frame-by-frame through the scene. I think if you watched enough examples, you would find that it becomes pretty recognizable, and that it's range is (obviously) two-dimensional.
As you all are suggesting, and I agree-- IF this was possible, worthwhile, there would be quite a few more sliders. (Ugh. Sliders.).
I will say this, though. Think of all the awful gigs that composers probably shouldn't do... I'll leave that to your imagination... Now those awful people selling something awful won't have to soil the integrity of a composer, they can make a robot do their dirty work. The robot may pluck the heart-strings of media consumers-- but no one will get their "hands dirty".
It makes sense that they would market this to film makers. But it is a little sickening. I'm not that worried that It will break the way things are done, when they are done well.
I like the creative assignment that others have hinted at above-- create the UI for what your imaginary compositional robot would display.
RHYTHM SETUP
beats per measure
subdivisions per beat
tempo
complexity (mixture of subdivisions, over-barlines, tuplets)
HARMONIC QUALITIES
scale type/mode
chord complexity
bass notes
non-root bass notes
non-chord tones in bass
pedal point
rate of chord change
MELODIC QUALITIES
harmonic tones/non-harmonic tones
step-wise/leap motion
counterpoint in secondary voices
per-voice sparsity/density
ostinato mid
ostinato upper
SOUND QUALITIES
dynamics (sustain volume)
articulation (attack volume)
duration (staccato/tenuto/legato/overlapped)
timbre
I'll stop there, but I can think of more. It's a pretty sprawling multi-tab UI.
As you all are suggesting, and I agree-- IF this was possible, worthwhile, there would be quite a few more sliders. (Ugh. Sliders.).
I will say this, though. Think of all the awful gigs that composers probably shouldn't do... I'll leave that to your imagination... Now those awful people selling something awful won't have to soil the integrity of a composer, they can make a robot do their dirty work. The robot may pluck the heart-strings of media consumers-- but no one will get their "hands dirty".
It makes sense that they would market this to film makers. But it is a little sickening. I'm not that worried that It will break the way things are done, when they are done well.
I like the creative assignment that others have hinted at above-- create the UI for what your imaginary compositional robot would display.
RHYTHM SETUP
beats per measure
subdivisions per beat
tempo
complexity (mixture of subdivisions, over-barlines, tuplets)
HARMONIC QUALITIES
scale type/mode
chord complexity
bass notes
non-root bass notes
non-chord tones in bass
pedal point
rate of chord change
MELODIC QUALITIES
harmonic tones/non-harmonic tones
step-wise/leap motion
counterpoint in secondary voices
per-voice sparsity/density
ostinato mid
ostinato upper
SOUND QUALITIES
dynamics (sustain volume)
articulation (attack volume)
duration (staccato/tenuto/legato/overlapped)
timbre
I'll stop there, but I can think of more. It's a pretty sprawling multi-tab UI.
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- BKK-OZ
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
There are more and more of these paint-by-the-numbers tools coming onto the market. There is an animation platform called GoAnimate that claims 50k+ customers that I'm sure has taken work away from motion graphics artists.
While I think this one is a bit pathetic, I reckon we dismiss these autobots (decepticons?) at our peril. It's just a matter of time before they get sophisticated enough to become viable replacements for people for a lot of tasks.
While I think this one is a bit pathetic, I reckon we dismiss these autobots (decepticons?) at our peril. It's just a matter of time before they get sophisticated enough to become viable replacements for people for a lot of tasks.
Cheers,
BK
…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
BK
…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
-
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Well now, I guess John Williams & Hanz Zimmer are out of a job.
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- mhschmieder
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Given what so many film scores sound like these days, it probably really can be boiled down to just three parameters.
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- FMiguelez
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
I agree, but it won't happen in our life-time.BKK-OZ wrote: While I think this one is a bit pathetic, I reckon we dismiss these autobots (decepticons?) at our peril. It's just a matter of time before they get sophisticated enough to become viable replacements for people for a lot of tasks.
It won't happen during our grand children life-times either. Eventually, it might get close to what we humans can do, but I doubt it will ever capture the subtlety and detail of human invention.
I predict the PROs will cease to exist, though, probably a little sooner, but not in the next 50-60 years.
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"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
- FMiguelez
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
mhschmieder wrote:Given what so many film scores sound like these days, it probably really can be boiled down to just three parameters.
But if one adjusts for the times, amount of people doing it, and available technology, I bet that same thing could be said about any other film era.
I doubt every score was brilliant during Korngold's time. I bet there was a lot of crap around too.
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---------------------------
"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.
---------------------------
"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
- BKK-OZ
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Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
Long may you live, brother, but I think automated music composition is coming sooner than you think.FMiguelez wrote:I agree, but it won't happen in our life-time.
...
I predict the PROs will cease to exist, though, probably a little sooner, but not in the next 50-60 years.
https://magenta.tensorflow.org/welcome-to-magenta
https://www.jukedeck.com
Cheers,
BK
…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
BK
…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
Re: Beginning of the end for film composers?
I happen to agree with you BKK. I've watched these things go from pathetically laughable to increasingly viable in just 5 years. I recently read that one of these AI composers was recently recognized in the EU as a composer for PRO purposes. The examples of its work with no human editing / intervention was really impressive.BKK-OZ wrote:Long may you live, brother, but I think automated music composition is coming sooner than you think.FMiguelez wrote:I agree, but it won't happen in our life-time.
...
I predict the PROs will cease to exist, though, probably a little sooner, but not in the next 50-60 years.
https://magenta.tensorflow.org/welcome-to-magenta
https://www.jukedeck.com
When I've tried to have this conversation with composers, counter arguments usually boil down to "no machine can have that ineffable 'spark' of creativity and flair that I have". Maybe. But I submit to you that in many paying contexts no one is going to give a damn because the audience can't tell the difference, and that "sparkless" yet passable machine is eventually going to be cheaper and faster.
Others say it will only impact the crappy low end stuff out there. Fine. But a lot of that crappy stuff is where many cut their teeth when starting out...
Most fail to consider that Music library houses can accelerate their trend of in sourcing music creation. I believe MusicBed and others have expanded their efforts to create "composing sweatshops" to crank out material for their libraries and create in-house teams for bespoke projects. Imagine being able to use these AI as "junior writing assistants" (at least initially) managed/edited by/teamed with human composers. That could mean more human jobs with greater efficiency/output. However this market is already in the throes of commoditization, so it is at least equally likely (if not more so) that the result will be fewer composers working at these organizations and more AI. Less wage costs and more royalty revenue streams to the libraries would do much to simultaneously lower costs while raising revenues from more royalty streams.
Opportunities for being composer assistants can even be impacted at some point.
It all sounds apocalyptic doesn't it?
Well it's not the end. The graphic design profession went through a similar upheaval when the first tools like page maker came out. And I remember the conversations with many of my graphic design friends being much the same. But graphic design didn't "go away". The market and number of opportunities and the economics changed dramatically. And some of the jobs on the periphery (typesetter anyone?) just about died.
Those who prospered were the ones who embraced the change and figured out how to use the new tools to bring advantage to their efforts. Those who disappeared were the ones who insisted the new tools changed nothing of consequence.
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