Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

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Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
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Explojoseph
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Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by Explojoseph »

Using: Logic Pro 9, EWQL Hollywood Strings Diamond (without an expressions pedal), LA Scoring Strings.

If you've never worked with EWQL Hollywood Strings or LA Scoring Strings, there's a chance you may not be able to answer my question.

I'm trying to create realistic string arpeggiations using only the "Piano Roll" (as it's called in Logic Pro). I have very little experience with theory and reading music, so composing with Logic's native scoring function is just not going to be an option.

I've heard people before who can't read music, but can still create very realistic sounding orchestrations simply through their knowledge of audio engineering. So, I know it's possible...

First of all, you should hear my attempt at creating a realistic string arpeggiation:

https://soundcloud.com/joeycopenhaver/s ... r-learning

This example is using EWQL Hollywood Strings Diamond. It sounds like crap. Not the software. Hollywood Strings is incredible. But, whatever it is I'm doing, I'm doing it wrong. It sounds wayyyy too synthetic.

I want the strings to flow together (connected, not so staccato). And I want it to be as naturalistic and realistic as possible. The string patch I'm using has a repetition function when a key is held down, and I think that is partially mucking things up.. I've tried other patches but I can't get the right effect.. If it isn't obvious already, I hardly know what I'm doing.. I'm not even sure what the best articulation would be: staccato, spiccato, pizzicato, tremolo, legato, or a combination? I'm just really unsure at this point..

Can I get some advice? Anything would be nice.. Or even an opinion such as "I personally like to layer staccato strings with *blank* because it helps to *blank*". Even a link to a tutorial page would work, however I'd prefer advice from someone who's encountered this issue before and overcome it.

I don't know if maybe the velocity is too consistent (since I don't have an expression pedal), if I'm not using the right combination of patches, if I'm not properly applying EQ and reverb (doubtful)... I honestly don't know. :banghead:

Please don't respond to this if you don't have experience with orchestrating (particularly when it comes to fast arpeggiated riffs).

Edit: Please don't respond to this if you don't have experience with orchestrating *IN MIDI USING VST'S* (particularly when it comes to fast arpeggiated riffs).

Thanks in advance for any info, tips, or tricks you can provide.
Last edited by Explojoseph on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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FMiguelez
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by FMiguelez »

I don't use any of your software. However, I don't think this has much to do with software but with technique.

The only way you will get realistic results is by studying and learning how real string players finger and arpeggiate chords.
Study any Wagner scores. Get a good book on orchestration and learn idiomatic ways to score for strings.

You can start with knowing how strings are tuned, how they bow, how they finger double, triple and quadruple stops, etc. THIS will get you very close to the authentic sound you seek, at least from a technique point of view.

Next would be the knowledge on how to apply all that to your particular strings VI, and then the engineering part of it (EQ, reverb, etc.).

The closer you master each of those steps, the closer your string section will sound to reality.

Also, while not a requirement, the more you learn about music theory and orchestration, the better and more realistic your mockups will be.
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Explojoseph
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by Explojoseph »

I appreciate your advice, but I'm inclined to disagree... While it is good to know theory and how the actual instrument is played, the answer I'm looking for lies within the programming aspect of MIDI-composition rather than instrumental technique. Much of this software was created keeping in mind that many of its users don't necessarily know how to play a stringed instrument. That's why there are specific patches for every possible articulation. You don't actually play legato or tremolo - the scripting within each patch does it for you.

My question was not "how can I play this so that it sounds realistic". I want to know how to engineer it properly using the right patches, scripts, automation, etc. to achieve a realistic sound. It's irrelevant what I'm playing. Even if I were to be simply playing a C-Chord repetitively, my question would remain the same.

I've heard people make VERY realistic MIDI orchestral compositions with close to no knowledge of music theory... With enough practice using Orchestral VST's and high expertise in audio engineering, I know this can be achieved...

Thanks again for your advice, but my question was not referring to instrumental technique or theory, but audio engineering skills.
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Explojoseph wrote:I have very little experience with theory and reading music...

Please don't respond to this if you don't have experience with orchestrating...
I'm still scratching my head on understanding the double standard of that one. You want only experienced people to answer yet there's a good chance you won't understand (or accept - as was the case in your response) the answer as you admittedly don't have the groundwork required to understand it. (As a result, I didn't waste my time trying.)

FM offers the advice you need, if not what you seek. Learn to read music. Learn theory. Study scores. Learn about all instrumental techniques (not just string technique). Breathing for winds and brass, bowing, percussion strokes, the 26 basic drum rudiments, how and when string players change strings, ranges of instruments, tunings. They all contribute to convincing mockups.

Until then, you'll be chasing that elusive "engineered" solution that simply does not exist. One size does not fit all. Sure, we can make suggestions to make your given sample sound better, but until you understand the actual process of the players you are trying to replicate, you'll be asking over and over again with each new problematic phrase or articulation you just can't seem to nail down. You can't nail them down because you can't visualize what the players are doing to get that specific effect. THAT is how composers and orchestrators work. They visualize (aurally) what the players are actually doing. You can't duplicate it because you don't understand the reality of the players, the notation, or the theories behind how all that fits together.

Then once you get that far, you'll start editing patches on your VIs to match the actual techniques you are trying to replicate. That is where the engineering comes in. It's a lot of hard work and study. There is no shortcut. No engineered solution.

It's clear from your response to FM that you are looking for a button push "engineering" solution. There isn't one - that's why it's called an art form. And as far as your claim that there are "people [who] make VERY realistic MIDI orchestral compositions with close to no knowledge of music theory..." I'd suggest you ask them how to do it. While you're at it, you might also ask them about their experience actually performing. I seriously doubt you'll find ANYONE making good orchestral mockups who hasn't actually played an instrument with some proficiency. That might be the thing you're leaving out of your equation and in that sense, they are not devoid of music theory experience, just self-taught.
It's easy to get next to music theory, especially between your peers and music classes and so forth. You just pay attention. I had a good ear, so I realized that printed music was just about reminding you what to play.

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Explojoseph
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by Explojoseph »

That does seem like it's a double standard. let explain myself. With basic compositional/audio engineering skills and the right software/hardware, you can learn how to arrange MIDI orchestrations using VST's and such. It is possible to become experienced recording/editing MIDI orchestral music without too much knowledge of theory; just through years of practice and the occasional youtube video or forum for tutorial purposes. so actually it kinda does make sense. it's NOT a double standard, I just wasn't clear enough, i guess.

[insulting rant edited]
Last edited by Explojoseph on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by FMiguelez »

Explojoseph wrote:With basic compositional skills and the right software/hardware, you can learn how to arrange MIDI orchestrations using VST's and such (all MIDI based composition).
Hopefully someone with a similar setup as yours will chime in to help you with your specifics.

In the mean time, I am sorry to have to insist on this, but...
Having an "all MIDI based composition" setup does not mean you can ignore the basics anymore than an architect can ignore the basic knowledge of calculating construction materials, supports, etc. just because he is designing stuff in computers...
Explojoseph wrote:It is possible to become experienced recording/editing MIDI orchestral music without too much knowledge of theory;
[/quote]
What makes you think that?
The way I see it, you need to know at least 3 of the main pillars: The writing part (composition, harmony, counterpoint, orchestration), the VI part (knowing your VIs to their full extent), and the engineering part (to make the recorded audio sound as good as possible).
Without any of those 3, one would feel lacking in a basic area. It doesn't matter how amazingly engineered a piece of music is... If instruments are not written idiomatically, they won't sound realistic. If you are a great writer but suck at engineering, then a great piece of music won't sound as good as it could.
So, IMO, you need competent knowledge of those 3 areas.

In my case, I think I write much better than I engineer. And the latter has been my main focus until I get it to a better level because I know that's my weaker area...

VSL has lots of "specialized" patches as well. But no matter how good a job I do at programming them, if I score strings as if I were scoring for piano, it will never sound good (or realistic at least).

Hopefully you won't take this as me being obtuse. I know what you want to accomplish. But doing so won't make the music sound better (the writing)... only the way it sounds (the engineering).

Having said all that, I'm sure you can get "learning files" on how to properly program your VI. When I first got my VSL library, I found doing that was key to learn it well (apart from RTFM, of course). I found examples of people who kindly posted their work online with MIDI files. Once I had the MIDI files it all came together... I could hear and see exactly what they did that made things work (or not work!). This was a basic step on familiarizing with the library.
I'm sure there East-West has some kind of learning resources for their user base. Have you looked there?
You could even pay someone to instruct you on your particular VI or ask someone to let you look at a MIDI file that you like the way it sounds.

Regarding one of your earlier questions, you can have a string section play arpeggios with different techniques (legato, detaché, etc.). But this is where knowledge of technique becomes crucial, so you know what they can and can not do. I strongly advise you look at what some of the Masters did so you learn from the best! Take a private lesson with Wagner or Strauss. It can only do you good.
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by FMiguelez »

[EDIT> I see you deleted your last post]

Hopefully that was because you reconsidered your position.

I'll edit mine in return.

< self deleted stuff >
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by FMiguelez »

Oh, NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:

Mike, you will want to kill me, and I won't blame you!

Guess what STUPID STUPID THING I DID!!!!


I am SO SORRY :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

I've done this accidentally at least 2 or 3 times since we had this forum.


Does anyone still have Mike's response still open? PLEASE let me know, so I can fix my idiotic mistake :shake:
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by cuttime »

Damn, did I miss something again?
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by FMiguelez »

cuttime wrote:Damn, did I miss something again?
Yes.
I edited (deleted) Mike's response by mistake :oops:
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

FMiguelez wrote:
cuttime wrote:Damn, did I miss something again?
Yes.
I edited (deleted) Mike's response by mistake :oops:
cuttime wrote:Damn, did I miss something again?
FMiguelez wrote:Yes.
I edited (deleted) Mike's response by mistake :oops:
:rofl: Been there. Done that. Almost did it to yours just now, so how easy is that when you have moderator privileges.

Not to worry. I doubt it would have taken anyway. Nevertheless, you've been a bad boy, Sid, and you must be punished... ha ha ha


This one's for you FM... (an me!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TQciRh4agU
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by FMiguelez »

Thank you for reacting kindly, Mike.

I got a good laugh with your link, though! :lol:

Hey, at least this time I managed to not delete anything. When will I learn?!? :roll:
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---------------------------

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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Life's too short, and besides, I'm not wearing knickers so there's nothing to put in a knot. Well, almost nothing.

Just noticing the topic title... A score sheet? That's used in baseball, not music. I'm beginning to see the problem.

Now THAT'S funny! :lol:
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Re: Creating Realistic String Arpeggiations W/O Score Sheet?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Just reading thru again and missed some of the condescension. Decisions, decisions...

Yeah, we're pretty much done here.
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