What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory, etc...

Moderators: Frodo, FMiguelez, MIDI Life Crisis

Forum rules
Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
User avatar
joelfriedman
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Washington, DC
Contact:

What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by joelfriedman »

For those interested in the formerly-of-Sibelius team that was sacked by Avid and now works at Steinberg on notation: http://blog.steinberg.net/2013/08/devel ... urce=pubv1

Stepping aside from the Finale vs Sibelius wars:
1. I wish Avid had never bought Sibelius...
2. I'm curious what the team is going to cook up.
3. So.. how is Cubase? :)
Joel Friedman
Web: http://www.joelfriedman.com
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/joelfriedman
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joel-friedman/1b/7b2/8a9

iMacPro 2017 3.2 GHz, OS 13.6,3 32GB RAM, 4 1 TB HD's (boot, project, and samples), MOTU UltraLite MK4, Nektar Impact LX88
DP 11.3, MachFive 3.2, MX4 2.2, Ethno 2.01, Komplete 14 Ultimate (don't ask...), Sibelius Ultimate, Symphobia v. 1.06, assorted libraries...

MacBook Pro M1 16 GB RAM OS 13.6.3
User avatar
HCMarkus
Posts: 9712
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:01 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Rancho Bohemia, California
Contact:

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by HCMarkus »

Dunno... I use DP. :)
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by mikehalloran »

After reading that, I can't imagine being interested in yet another product that would want me to look at a familiar task, notation, from a different approach that would require a different learning process.

So this new product is to be a rewrite of Score which has maybe 10 people still using it? I remember Steve Wozniak going on about the superiority of the Apple II over the Mac in the early days (remember the GS?) but I can't imagine him spending his money trying to bring a text based OS into the 21st C. Re-read that blog if you think my comparison is off.

Am I missing something something? Is whatever this becomes DOA?

Finale is actually pretty good. I understand there is still hope for Sibelius, not that I care. Notion and.a few others have their fans.

Cubase? Yea, right... Amateur hour for PC users. It doesn't open older versions. I understand there's a grown up version but why, now that DP is available? I don't know anyone who uses the Mac version no matter how much hardware comes bundled with it.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
joelfriedman
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Washington, DC
Contact:

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by joelfriedman »

Yeah, I hear you. I posted it mainly for interest. I'm a long-time Sibelius user (formerly of Finale) and I'm saddened to see it under a cloud not of its own doing, kinda like Opcode. Avid is the new Gibson? :)

I posted it mainly for interest as there was a lot of buzz in the composer & engraver community when Daniel and crew was 1st sacked by Avid and then picked up by Steinberg. The blog seems a bit esoteric, maybe TMI from a programmer, and I'm VERY happy with DP (and have way too much to learn before deciding I'd ever need to switch). I really do wish that there was better alignment between the companies I use for audio and notation. I'm just hoping for a "happy ending" of some sort.
Joel Friedman
Web: http://www.joelfriedman.com
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/joelfriedman
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joel-friedman/1b/7b2/8a9

iMacPro 2017 3.2 GHz, OS 13.6,3 32GB RAM, 4 1 TB HD's (boot, project, and samples), MOTU UltraLite MK4, Nektar Impact LX88
DP 11.3, MachFive 3.2, MX4 2.2, Ethno 2.01, Komplete 14 Ultimate (don't ask...), Sibelius Ultimate, Symphobia v. 1.06, assorted libraries...

MacBook Pro M1 16 GB RAM OS 13.6.3
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11923
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by bayswater »

joelfriedman wrote: So.. how is Cubase?
Some PC versions are OK. Some Mac versions are dodgy ports from Windows with slow screen graphics. Steinberg has a bad habit of dropping useful features, and adding new stuff no one was asking for, and their record on bug fixes is not great. On the plus side, it's easier to learn than most daws, and has some features that have been on the DP wishlist for a long time.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by mhschmieder »

Easier to learn? I'm fairly expert at MIDI, and after 100 hours, I still couldn't get Cubase to work on my old Mac. Maybe it's gotten better. Between the five user manuals (and different ways of doing things), having to "think in ASIO terms" without any Windows audio experience, and possible undocumented crippling of the light version that I had, I almost had a nervous breakdown. Later, at an AES Show, I found out from the horse's mouth that indeed MIDI didn't work on the Mac in that version of Cubase. I never went back for a second try, partly because I also had an unsatisfactory experience trying out the Mac port of Wavelab.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11923
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by bayswater »

Some of the Cubase conventions are a bit different from those of Logic or DP, but I think the manual by the time SX 3 was released was pretty good, and not so difficult to get through. One reason the learning curve is faster is the MIDI editing is not as detailed. A lot is left to a sort of boolean logical event editor (whose name I forget). That is totally opaque, like the Logic environment, or Dr T's master editor. So if that's what you were trying to use, my sympathies.

As for whether it worked on a Mac, a lot of stuff was broken around V4, and got fixed over the next two versions. I hear it got broken again in V7.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by mhschmieder »

I was never able to get Cubase AI4 (or whatever it was called) to pass MIDI signal, after 100 hours of trying. The worst experience I've had with any app in my entire life.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11923
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by bayswater »

AI is the stripped down version you get bundled with hardware isn't it? And Cubase V4 was a general disaster. AI4 would have been a stripped down disaster. That's where I dropped it after spending upwards of $3K on Cubase licences.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
Paulformer
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:47 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by Paulformer »

I find Sibelius a great companion to DP though I only use it for the final stages producing charts or scores . DP is just so much obviously better for everything except professional notation. When charts /scores are needed I record it all in DP then quantize a copy of the file including note lengths save it as MIDI file then open in Sibelius. It still can take some cleaning up of note lengths and track names etc before adding the expressions and slurs etc there in Sibelius but i find it over all way quicker than starting the chart from the beginning in Sibelius.

Quickscribe is great as an editing window but I find it's just not there yet for professional scores.
I have wondered though why MOTU doesn't port over their old Mosiac notation program code to DP. Add a few features and modern it up a bit , then maybe I wouldn't even need to use Sibelius!

By the way Sibelius has not left Avid. That was all a Internet rumour. I asked avid about it when I had to re register Sibelius 7 on the phone because of a migrating computer issue. The tech said its all un true about Sibelius leaving Avid. They have even released updates since the rumour mill has been active in cyberspace. My chart making companion to DP lives on !
Nigel Keay
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 12:38 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by Nigel Keay »

Paulformer wrote:By the way Sibelius has not left Avid. That was all a Internet rumour. I asked avid about it when I had to re register Sibelius 7 on the phone because of a migrating computer issue. The tech said its all un true about Sibelius leaving Avid. They have even released updates since the rumour mill has been active in cyberspace. My chart making companion to DP lives on !
While it's true that Sibelius is still owned by Avid, there's been no update of Sibelius itself for just under a year. The current version is 7.1.3 which was released just before the London development team was completely dismissed (I think they were all gone by the end of October). The "rumour" started as a result of Daniel Spreadbury & team's departure, or as soon as that news broke. There's just been an update of Scorch, but that's not Sibelius....
DP10.13, OSX 10.13.6, Melodyne Studio 4.1, Dorico Pro 3.5, Sibelius 7.1.3, MOTU Mosaic 1.5, MOTU Traveler mk1.
User avatar
ChrisByrd
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:17 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Fife, Scotland

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by ChrisByrd »

Nigel Keay wrote: While it's true that Sibelius is still owned by Avid, there's been no update of Sibelius itself for just under a year. The current version is 7.1.3 which was released just before the London development team was completely dismissed (I think they were all gone by the end of October). The "rumour" started as a result of Daniel Spreadbury & team's departure, or as soon as that news broke. There's just been an update of Scorch, but that's not Sibelius....
I was trying to remember whether 7.1.3 had been released just before or after the old team departed, so thanks for confirming that Nigel. The interesting thing will be to see what Sibelius 8 (if it appears) will be like, and also what the new Finale offers (I moved back to Finale after the Sibelius team was sacked).

I do think the new notation software being developed by Daniel & team has a future - Avid have managed to alienate a lot of Sibelius users, particularly in the UK - including many of the schools and colleges who helped to give Sibelius market dominance. For some reason MakeMusic have never put much effort into penetrating the UK market, which I think is a shame.
MacBook Pro 2.5Ghz Intel Core i5 4GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.9.1, Apogee Duet Firewire, Yamaha S90, Digital Performer 8.0.5, Finale 2012c, Cubase 7, Logic Pro X, NI Komplete 9, HALion 5
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I suspect the new Finale version will be an extensive rewrite since it drops all support for anything pre-64 bit (Lion or better). Not so sure about the PC side.

Hopefully that will kill a lot of bugs and streamline things a bit. They claim some new features as well.

Fingers and parts (musical lines, that is) crossed.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
Nigel Keay
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 12:38 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by Nigel Keay »

Chris, I found (rather easily) Daniel's announcement just before signing off, in fact it was the end of September 2012: http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/sibelius-7-1-3-update-now-available/
DP10.13, OSX 10.13.6, Melodyne Studio 4.1, Dorico Pro 3.5, Sibelius 7.1.3, MOTU Mosaic 1.5, MOTU Traveler mk1.
User avatar
joelfriedman
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Washington, DC
Contact:

Re: What's up with Steinberg and Notation?

Post by joelfriedman »

Daniel & Co. are smart guys. And it's a real shame what happened. That's why I originally posted the blog entry. Yeah, it's too esoteric etc., etc. but it's an interesting development that Steinberg swooped in and picked up all of these people, gave them a "think-tank," and I have to hope that something good will come out of it. How often do companies do that?

I just downloaded the new Scorch and I STILL can't get it to work properly! :banghead: I'm not sure why it won't work, but I'm thinking it may have something to do with my browser privacy settings (and things like DoNotTrackMe or Ghostery interfering). Wish I knew...

There is a lot I like about Sibelius. I hope there is a decent new version etc. on the near horizon.

Maybe I'll have to take a look at the new Finale. I'd have to party like it was 1999 all over again (pretty literally, actually)!

Best,

Joel
Joel Friedman
Web: http://www.joelfriedman.com
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/joelfriedman
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joel-friedman/1b/7b2/8a9

iMacPro 2017 3.2 GHz, OS 13.6,3 32GB RAM, 4 1 TB HD's (boot, project, and samples), MOTU UltraLite MK4, Nektar Impact LX88
DP 11.3, MachFive 3.2, MX4 2.2, Ethno 2.01, Komplete 14 Ultimate (don't ask...), Sibelius Ultimate, Symphobia v. 1.06, assorted libraries...

MacBook Pro M1 16 GB RAM OS 13.6.3
Post Reply