Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I don't generally export from DP to Finale. I do all my work directly in Finale when going to print and haven't done that type of export in several years.

Maybe Frodo can jump in here?

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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by mhschmieder »

This can help during the fine-tuning process though, before rendering a mock-up, but I do understand MLC's point about staying in a dedicated notation app's space as much as possible when preparing scores.

I look forward to FM's review of Finale 2012. I won't have time anytime soon to download and evaluate Finale vs. Encore vs. Sibelius vs. Notion vs. the rest, but FM's points remind me of how some (but not all) of my work suffers currently due to compromises made while working with QS, and also how hard it can be sometimes to properly analyze a whole bunch of parts together.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by FMiguelez »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I don't generally export from DP to Finale. I do all my work directly in Finale when going to print and haven't done that type of export in several years.

Maybe Frodo can jump in here?
I almost edited your post (as usual in this section)... :roll:

Yeah, hopefully our Hobbit friend will chime in.

I guess I will find out soon enough, but in the mean time, is Finale tempo mapping similar to DP in terms of tools, workflow and GUI?
I suppose you can do all sorts of ramps, and everything, right?
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by FMiguelez »

mhschmieder wrote:...but FM's points remind me of how some (but not all) of my work suffers currently due to compromises made while working with QS, and also how hard it can be sometimes to properly analyze a whole bunch of parts together.
EXACTLY! That's my problem now.
And if you try to analyze (or whatever) parts without QS, such as with the GE, it's even worse. You can't get a sense of the different voices looking at those graphic bars.

I just want to have a nice score, so I can quickly read from it and sequence the music into DP (providing the tempo maps translate accurately). So it looks like for orchestral work, this is the best method by far. I really feel so clumsy with QS... :(

I can't believe I haven't done this sooner!
I hope one can purchase the paper manuals from Make Music too. I forgot they just give you a PDF now...
The good thing is that if the manuals are still as well written as in older versions, then it will be a breeze to learn the app quickly and incorporate it into my workflow. I haven't used Finale seriously since I was at college :shock:
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

FMiguelez wrote: I almost edited your post (as usual in this section)... :roll:

Yeah, hopefully our Hobbit friend will chime in.

I guess I will find out soon enough, but in the mean time, is Finale tempo mapping similar to DP in terms of tools, workflow and GUI?
I suppose you can do all sorts of ramps, and everything, right?
Too funny, I almost edited your post just now!

Finale allows all sorts of tempo entry but not really a tempo map. Editing tempi can be tedious and while you can ramp accell. and decell. across a section fairly easily, editing specific tempo locations that are not entered as Expressions can be both tedious and not as "accessible" as you are used to in a DAW.

As for the tempo resolution, you are probably looking at entry in Finale at the "note" level (quarter, half, eighth, etc.) . If intensive, super-precise tempo entry is your main concern, Finale may be a disappointment. It simply is not designed for graphic, visual tempo entry the way DP is.

Not only does Finale have the dreaded PDF manual, but it is available to ANYONE online:

http://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/ ... Finale.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tempo Tool will be of particular interest to you. I'd do a link but it doesn't copy well from their PDF. You can do a search and select items of interest from the left column.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

There is no paper manual available from Make Music. Maybe a third party book is out there. There used to be one for earlier versions but I doubt there is one out for F2012 yet. I miss the paper manual very much.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by FMiguelez »

Thanks for all this info, Mike.

When I get it I will be doing lots of experimenting to see what can and can't be easily done.

Hypothetically, and taking into account what you describe about tempi, my plan would probably be something like:

- Do the tempo map in DP.
- Import it into Finale (depending on its accuracy)
- Compose/orchestrate in Finale
- Print the score as a guide
- Sequence and mix in DP

I'll also try to approach Finale from the start, to see if I like the workflow. I'm pretty sure I can adapt to Finale's tempo handling to sync to video. Then DP would only be used to sequence the score.

I'm really looking forward to it! My dad will bring it to me, but he's still in NY. Hopefully he will come back soon :)

Too bad they don't sell the paper manuals anymore... Hopefully it reads fine in the iPad.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I'm pretty sure Finale will import a precise (hi res) tempo map but I believe it will resolve to the quantize settings you establish in the dialog box. One of my long time complaints with Finale is the difficult time one has in getting a tempo map as a list - let alone easy editing.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by mhschmieder »

Here's a bunch of links for Finale books, old and new (I tried to find the newest edition of each):

http://www.amazon.com/Finale-2005-Power ... 615&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Finale-Primer-Mas ... 615&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.com/Finale-Composers- ... 575&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.com/Finale-Guide-Musi ... 575&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Finale-2011-Trail ... 575&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Composing-Finale- ... 575&sr=1-1

Three of these books are by the same author (Mark Johnson), so I don't know if that means they are variants and changed titles with publishers and editions or not.

The one from Berklee College of Music is probably well-written, like their one for DP.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Don't waste your money. Everything you get in any of those book is found in the Quick Reference Guide (again, available for ANYONE for free on the internets tubes...

http://downloads2.makemusic.com/finale/ ... MacQRG.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by mhschmieder »

Thanks. I just downloaded it to my desktop to study at my own leisure.

This will help when I evaluate notation apps this fall (hopefully in a couple of weeks' time).

I would hate to buy Sibelius just because it has a printed manual though. :-)

Typical of its vendor, you pay $30(?) extra for it though. Not a big deal, really (many won't want it).
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Frodo »

FMiguelez wrote: How accurately does Finale import tempo changes from DP?
Does it do it at the tick level? Does it matter if they happen to be all over the place (as in not necessarily in parts of beats - ramps, and all that)?
The best thing to do is to make a copy of your DP project. Then, quantize all note-on and note-off locations so that they're as spot on as possible. This will help Finale translate the SMF. In Finale, you choose the smallest subdivision in your SMF (ie: 16th notes or....) and all should be fine.

If you have "tuplets", YMMV. For 8th note tuplets, it should be okay. The smaller the tuplet subdivision, the trickier it gets. If there are few enough tuplets in the project, I'll just mouse them in. If there are a lot of them, I'll reset Finale's import quantize settings to that tuplet and then import a second copy of the SMF. Other notes may look wrong, but the tuplets should be okay. I'll just copy/paste those tuplets from the second imported file.

One thing about importing SMFs: Finale will automatically create a generic score that won't look as great as it would in a formal template. You might have to do some editing of your imported score and then create a good looking template into which you can copy/paste everything. You don't *have to* do this, but the end result will look a lot nicer. It only takes a few seconds.

I'm not nearly as fast at Finale note entry as am with DP. I'll start with pencil and paper, then play the whole score into DP if it's for a large orchestra. For a small ensemble or for a piano/vocal, I'll just work directly in Finale. A large orchestral score (about 5-6 minutes long) would take me the better part of a day to do directly in Finale. If I play the score into DP and then import it into Finale, I can get it done in about an hour.... not counting slurs, dynamics, or articulations.

You'll want to do some experimentation once you get Finale to see which method works best for which purpose. Setting and resetting Finale's import settings will take a little trial and error just to get a sense of how Finale will best read the SMFs. Once you get familiar with those settings it becomes a no-brainer.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Kubi »

Just a quick follow-up question to this thread:

What's the consensus - upgrade from 2011, or stay put?

Many a year I've upgraded only to find I didn't have to use Finale much at all in that year, so even though it looks like I may use it more in the coming months, I'd rather save my $120 and sit this one out, unless there's compelling reason to upgrade to 2012.

So to those who have upgraded to 2012, was it worth it? New features make a diff? More stable? Thanks for any advice or observations!

:D
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I haven't done any large projects in F2012 yet. The new Score manager takes a little getting used to but once I started using it instead of the former method of working I do think it is going to make like a heck of a lot easier in some ways.

The implementation of Unicode is not as big a deal for me but those writing in non-Latin English are gushing over it.

I'd suggest you hop over to the Finale Forum hosted by MakeMusic and see what's there but as always, take what you see as the "big problems" with a grain of salt. Just like here, you get users who don't have a clue what they're doing and when the program doesn't respond to their incorrect usage, it must be a bug (and the developer has to face!). LOL!

You'll also notice that the PC side of the forum has twice as many posts as the Mac side, which I find interesting. It is very rare for me to go over there but I do stay on top of the Mac side of things on nearly a daily basis. Frankly, I should do both but one has to limit the internet at some point and if I don't have a specific issue that they can address I won't bother - but I digress...

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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Kubi »

Thanks!

Yeah I was poking around at the forums there. Just can't seem to find any sort of semi-definitive answer anywhere re. if it's worth upgrading. At the moment I tend to think I'll skip this for the time being... if anyone has any other observations, please do chime in!
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