Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

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Discussions about composing, arranging, orchestration, songwriting, theory and the art of creating music in all forms from orchestral film scores to pop/rock.
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Frodo
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Frodo »

mjmoody wrote:
So, you play everything in to DP? How do you deal with human playback issues? I'm a pretty good pianist, but I make little timing errors that are real hard to fix with quantization. The more tracks I add, the more "slightly off" things get, however, unless I quantize.

I am pretty quick at entering things in Finale - and, I enter things the way I want, so I don't have to mess with quantization. However, now that I'm getting better at DP, I am interested in trying other work-flow methods.
Generally speaking, if a score is headed for Finale and no one has to hear the sequence, I'll just quantize all notes on and off. It's a lot easier and faster (for me, anyway).

Now, if I'm doing a score that must go to audio, then I've had more success with playing a piano VI expressively first without regard to the click. I bounce that track and then beat map it to sync the barlines, etc. That way, I can still quantize the notes for Finale if needed without hurting the expression. There may be a moment here or there when something doesn't quite hit the mark, but a tweak of the conductor track usually fixes it.

Still, I'll work from separate copies of the project because it's a different approach from just doing a performance sequence.

I know some who put in all the notes and then they edit the conductor track to get an expressive performance. That hasn't always worked for me, so beat mapping an honest performance generally renders more gratifying results.
mjmoody wrote: For one thing, I am a little confused between "humanize" and "wrong." When is something played "like a human" vs. when is it played with "bad time?"
LOL. That's one way to put it. I barely remember the last time I used the humanize setting in DP because it rarely produced the desired results without a lot of twiddling. Even there, the results were "not quite". But if something is played like a human, it can be played well without being metronomic.
mjmoody wrote: Maybe I need to just let things fall more where they fall, but, I'm still curious about ideas and practices. When do you quantize? If you do quantize, what settings generally work?
It depends on the project. If I'm going for a performance, then I'll probably never quantize. If I'm going from DP to Finale, then I'll quantize everything so that all notes sit squarely where they belong in the SMF. Settings vary and are changed as needed. The only thing that's set is the note on and note off feature.

The one exception is when a tuplet of some sort is tied over to a different kind of note grouping, then the note on and note off points must be quantize independently.
mjmoody wrote: If you play a track and quantize, is the result still a recording of you, or is it something else??
As mentioned above, if the performance is the goal I'll make and beat map a real time piano mock-up recording. That keeps the performance real. If no one has to hear the sequence, then it doesn't matter what it sounds like on the computer because real musicians will play the score, eventually.

It's like using DP in two different ways. For those Finale/quantize projects, I can use a lower profile orchestral VI that doesn't require running my external drives. I can also avoid dealing with automation and mixing or running gobs of fx plugins since no one will hear the recording. It just easier and faster for me to get the notes into Finale, and it's easier on the CPU. For a performance project, I'll use a higher-end library and run two machines in a network with eSATA drives spinning away.

That's for large orchestral scores. For smaller ensembles, it's probably just as fast to work directly in Finale from start to finish. This score I'm working on today started with a blank page at about 8 AM this morning and is now about 75% ready to go to Finale. Had I started in Finale, it would have taken me a few days to get all the notes in for 36 staves.

Not everyone works this way, but it has saved me SO much time.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by FMiguelez »

Frodo wrote:
LOL. That's one way to put it. I barely remember the last time I used the humanize setting in DP because it rarely produced the desired results without a lot of twiddling. Even there, the results were "not quite". But if something is played like a human, it can be played well without being metronomic.
Totally agreed!
The best humanize feel is still done by humans, not the computer :smash:
DP's Humanize settings will never work quite as well as playing the music the way you want it.

Wait! You actually use the Hobbitize setting, yes, Frodo? :mrgreen: I take it the same still applies?
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Frodo »

FMiguelez wrote:
Wait! You actually use the Hobbitize setting, yes, Frodo? :mrgreen: I take it the same still applies?
Only for the small notes! :lol:
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Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

And what is this "expression" thing you speak of? LOL
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

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MIDI Life Crisis wrote:And what is this "expression" thing you speak of? LOL
Dunno. Must be one of those Gondor things.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by wheever »

It's timely coming across this thread right now. I've owned Finale since VERSION ONE, for the love of Eno, but haven't had need for it in ages, at least since the '90s...until this week. Of course, I'll need to upgrade from version 3.2 for the intel/OSX and whatnot.

So I think to myself, huh, it's only a little more to crossgrade to Sibelius rather than upgrade to the latest Finale, so maybe I'll check out Sibelius?

To make a long story short, even though Finale is and always was a kludgy mess, I couldn't get my head around Sibelius. Just trying to do simple note entry from the laptop kbd made it have seizures and blow up. Moreover, I found that, for whatever reason, I found myself clicking and cursing and having nothing I expected to have happen actually happen. Reminds me of Adobe Illustrator, in that way.

So I'm staying with Finally, er, I mean Finale! And in a lot of ways it's like coming home--coming home to the wife that drives you crazy sometimes, rather than going home with the stupid tart that just hit on you in the bar then threw up on your shoe. :lol:
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Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

That's also my experience with Sibelius. They have added 'Finale' mode but what's the point? Finale is so much better IMO. Be prepared to learn a few new tricks with the current version. Worth the effort for sure!
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by wheever »

It's quite a relief, actually, to stay with Finale, MLC. I'm getting too old to learn new programs. Seriously. It's more important to be productive than muck about with stuff that is so poorly designed it's not intuitive--not that Finale's intuitive, mind, but I already know most of the program intimately.

Getting down to work with Finale 2012 is really fun. All the old knowledge is coming back...along with all the workarounds for things that are still irritating. Like it being easier to just click a bunch of times and randomly make pitches of the durations I want, *then* move them to the pitches with the arrow keys because the mouse is a little twitchy and I frequently end up with the wrong note anyway. (Or chuckling about Frodo's description of how to import MIDI files from DP into Finale, because those quirks are still there from F-ing 1989! Ha!)

The memories this interface brings back! Ahh, it's just like college around these parts now. :woohoo:
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Frodo »

Finale is not nearly as bad as it used to be. I bought v1.x myself-- paid a small fortune for it and set it aside for a few years in sheer frustration. That was my "coda" in more ways than one.

I do agree that there are some oddities that haven't changed for all that has changed for the better. Maybe my use of DP to make SMFs is testament to what could be improved. Also, it's nice that there are plugins to simplify certain tasks, but some plugins are so basic that it seems that Finale should have those features anyway.

But, I just got a whole new orchestral score done in a couple of hours tonight and can't complain too much.
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by mhschmieder »

Frodo wrote:But, I just got a whole new orchestral score done in a couple of hours tonight and can't complain too much.
THAT's the kind of testimony I'm looking for, as my evaluation of Sibelius didn't exactly produce anything I could even use for elaboration, being that it kept blowing up on me in odd ways (i.e. losing data).

I didn't dare download a copy of Finale 2012 to try yet, as I'm afraid I'll "need" it as soon as I try it, and have had other expenses to deal with. But thankfully the cross-grade fee is quite cheap (< $150).
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Frodo »

mhschmieder wrote:
THAT's the kind of testimony I'm looking for, as my evaluation of Sibelius didn't exactly produce anything I could even use for elaboration, being that it kept blowing up on me in odd ways (i.e. losing data).
Yikes-a-roni, dude. Losing data is the LAST thing a notation app should do!!!

More testimony-- 12 scores in 15 days. Granted-- I was working around the clock and wouldn't wish my schedule on anyone. But, it all got done! Keep in mind that I have odd ways of working, but I'm always in search of the fastest method possible, whatever it takes.
mhschmieder wrote: I didn't dare download a copy of Finale 2012 to try yet, as I'm afraid I'll "need" it as soon as I try it, and have had other expenses to deal with. But thankfully the cross-grade fee is quite cheap (< $150).
You were wise to not have downloaded v2012 on a whim. I'm dealing with massive amounts of note data, and while some of my workflow occasionally runs contrary to Finale's intended conveniences, I find those conveniences less expedient than the ones I use. Time is not always on my side, but staying on time's side remains the endeavor that keeps on endeavoring.

But isn't it the choice we all must make: to use an app as it was intended rather than to find the shortest distance between two points-- like the beginning of a project and the end of it by the least time-consuming means possible?
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Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

The shortest two points between two distances is me ears....
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by Frodo »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:The shortest two points between two distances is me ears....
If only using ones ears would help get Finale's slurs to look right! :lol:
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Re: Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by mhschmieder »

I finally downloaded demos to Finale 2012 and Sibelius 7 tonight, as my biggest critic had some charts to share with me in Finale format and I thought I'd use this as the time to do the demos and shootouts so that I can return the favour after years of having my stuff evaluated by someone who has an actual background in this sort of thing. :-)

Anyway, I am struggling at the moment because I ran FInale the last, thinking it would be the best, but have had entirely negative experiences thus far (especially compared with Notion -- which I have owned for years but rarely use -- and Sibelius).

First off, all the key signatures use weird characters like a huge "15" with "mb" in smaller superscript instead of the standard "b" sign for flats, and a diacritical mark instead of a "#" sharp sign. Is this some modern notation convention that I am not familiar with?

I find the fonts themselves illegible until blown up considerably, and at least initially, instrument labels do not show up past the first page of a chart (unique to Finale). I also don't like how it constantly does "smart" reassignment of the active tool based on context.

I tried creating a few example charts in different genres and instrumentations, as well as importing MIDI from some of my chamber orchestra works that I've been working on lately. Finale was by far the worst of the three on all counts -- out of the box, so to speak. I did look at MIDI import parameters (quantize is off), but it doesn't properly intuit note length.

Even more bizarre, it uses a comma to represented dotted notes, and something that looks like the symbol for the Masonic Order for eighth note rests. Full bar rests are indicated by a wavy horizontal squiggle.

If I zoom in (necessary to have any hope of reading the fonts as they are so fuzzy and imprecise even though I chose the ones for publishing), the scroll bar won't take me all the way to the end of the score; I have to zoom out first and then zoom back in after scrolling.

The 3D fisheye styled tool icons are rather obtuse and hard on the eyes due to barrel distortion and unnecessary depth shading. 2D interfaces are best; the 3D fad has fortunately passed in the mainstream of software development.

The one initial advantage I see in Finale is that it has more depth when it comes to scoring features and scoring templates, within the classical genre. It barely covers jazz, big band, Broadway, or other genres where scores are indeed often needed (whether for live performance or just for composing and arranging and lead sheets). No big surprise though.

Sibelius, on the other hand, appears to be trying to cover all musical genres and instrumentations, breadth-first with little depth. The app annoyingly starts up with some motif playing back in audio, which I haven't found a way to shut off yet and which is a deal-killer in terms of working late at night and launching an app without first turning all sound off in my computer audio chain.

The fonts are VERY easy on the eyes though, as are the layouts, and chart labels appear on every page vs. just the first page.

When importing MIDI, all note lengths and rests are correctly determined, and marked the traditional way. Key changes in the MIDI score show up, as do tempo markings, but for some reason the tempi are slightly off and more precise than they show up in DP (that is, more digits of precision than I entered in the MIDI, but not the numbers I entered as I tend to set integer values or resolution to 0.5 bpm or 0.2 bpm in rare cases).

I find the basic notation tools in Sibelius far easier to intuit, more thorough and complete, and simply degraded by the lack of good shortcuts compared to Finale and the relative difficulty of switching modes during one's workflow. But that's just on cursory usage so far.

Notion, meanwhile, is still by far the easiest and most intuitive to use going out of the gate, and the quickest for basic workflows, but its limitations are more obvious to me now than several years ago when comparing older versions of each notation app. Furthermore, it looks unlikely that it will rise to the fully pro level of Sibelius or Finale, as they are going in a different direction of providing a cheap tool for education markets, including a DAW.

Of course I know that a quick evaluation is never sufficient for these sorts of tools. The reason I am reporting first impressions though, is that I think they ARE important in establishing trust, or lack thereof, in a vendor's development staff as well as measuring their attitudes towards their clients.

Finale was also very difficult to bootstrap as it gave red herring error messages on expired Audio Unit demos, and stalled for eons each time so that it was hard for me to know why or take corrective action. But Wave Editor does that too.

The main point though is that the visual appearance of Finale vs. Sibelius is enough to put me off, as I get a headache almost instantly. I find Sibelius easy on the eyes and logical in its layout and workflow. It is doubtful to me that these core differences would diminish with increased depth on the products, just as Cubase will never feel warm and fuzzy to me the way DP does.

I'll see if I can dig a bit deeper into preferences on both apps now, before konking out for the night. I gave it a few tries already, but of course having printed manuals at hand would be a huge help. Maybe I should just rush order both manuals before my 30 day trials expire.

Of course, there's the possibility that I'll find that raw functionality trumps everything else. That's why I'm going to try to stay awake and alert long enough to throw almost every notation marking I can think, at each app, to see what's missing and how it handles certain challenges. After all, markings are the main reason to use these vs. sticking with MIDI, which doesn't even provide for crescendos and stuff (nor do MIDI import actions intuit such markings).
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Finale 2012 is out. $120 upgrade

Post by mjmoody »

Interesting description - I have been using Finale for years and have not experienced what you are describing. I have the 2011 version and decided not to upgrade. The notes all seem fine and I write dotted quarter notes using a period.

Before giving up on Finale I recommend writing in scroll view rather than page view and entering notes with the "speedy" tool.

I find note entering much easier with Finale - especially with the speedy tool. Good luck with your evaluation!
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