Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

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Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/7/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crossgrade for $199. Hmmm...

This:

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=336661" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Speedy Entry mode" and "Finale mode" to map your numeric keys to Finale's Speedy Entry feature? Uh hmmmmmm....

Next thing you know, Avid will be placing a "DP Mode" in their PT products with a $6,000 crossgrade from DP to PT HD. LOL!
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by Elektroakoustika »

I've used Finale for 8 years now. Sibelius 7 may have finally convinced me to move over. I'm really tired of MakeMusic releasing mediocre upgrades these last few years. While I know the workflow of Finale well, I think Sibelius will make a lot of things easier.

After watching all the videos Avid has on the Sibelius website, it looks like they finally got a lot of things right over there. Especially with easily changing document options, adding/removing instruments, speedy entry :) , full screen workflow, easily edited text, and getting up to today's standards (64 bit). I also think the user interface looks quite intuitive as well.

I'll download the trial and see if I can handle it. :wink: And hell, $199 crossgrade is a pretty good deal.
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Yeah, I admit - it is very tempting... I used Sibelius at version 4 at did the competitive crossgrade then, but subsequently sold it to someone on this board since I absolutely could not figure out note entry in any way that was intuitive for me.

Finale certainly has it's problems, but I am so familiar with it since 1995 that it is second nature to me.
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by Frodo »

Greater compatibility seems to be Avid's approach, which is quite different from what Digidesign's used to be (being proprietary and expensive), let alone from what Sibelius' approach used to be before PT and Sibelius were taken over by Avid. Sibelius by default had to introduce itself as a competitor and an alternative to Finale. PT going native was about as close to an unlikely turn of events as I could have imagined.

Now everyone's just trying to get along. How nice!! In the name of PDF's success, XML earns a new stripe in music world!

Well, at least Sibelius won't get "eaten" by Finale like Encore did. I can't begrudge ProTools' strong foothold in the DAW market. Let's face it--- when it comes to notation, cosmetics really do hold equal ground with functionality. Who wants to read your charts if they look like Cartman made them, no matter how easy they were to create?

Also, Finale has been around longer, and Finale users were less likely to move to Sibelius while Sibelius did well with new users interested in serious notation.

That PT took on an LE version of Sibelius answered a lot of requests for better DAW notation.

How about this for a pipe dream: Finale-- The QuickScribe Version?

Sometmes, it hurts to dream. :?
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by Phil O »

I'm not a Finale power user, but I've been using it for a long time. I've stuck with it because it's what I know, but it's notoriously buggy. I think I'd move to Sibelius if I knew it just works right and can do everything Finale can do. I'll probably download the demo and give it a shot.

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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

If you (or anyone else) tries the demo, please report back. I'll be watching over at the Make Music forum for reports as well, but I doubt there will be much to report about how well S. is working. Perhaps reports on the "Finale mode." I just cannot believe they are pushing the fact that they are copying Finale's methods. At least I know it wasn't just me who had a problem with S.
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by Phil O »

Will do, MLC, but it probably won't be any time soon for me. I'm in the middle of a project that's keeping me quite busy right now. Perhaps when the smoke clears.

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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

The smoke clears? LOL!
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by Phil O »

Good point!
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by mhschmieder »

Did Encore go away a second time or is that an historical observation?

Also, for those considering switching, be sure to check out Notion in case its workflow suits you better. It has greater capabilities than either, but also some limitations.

Each person needs to judge for themselves based on their own needs, but if you're frustrated with one of the two major notation programs, there's no guarantee the other major one, vs. a minor one, will be much of an improvement, as they have more in common than they are different at this point.
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

mhschmieder wrote: Also, for those considering switching, be sure to check out Notion in case its workflow suits you better. It has greater capabilities than either...
And those would be, IYO?
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by mhschmieder »

Notion is a more direct interface for composing, as composers and conductors are their primary market, vs. publishers.

Looking at the product announcement for Sibelius 7, however, it appears they have taken note of Notion and borrowed some of its ideas...

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2011/07/ ... -and-more/

Years ago, I tried Encore, Sibelius, Finale, and Notion, and Notion was the only one in which I could work quickly and linearly, vs. organizing my notation as categorized tasks in my head and then taking care of them in a different workflow than I would do with pencil and manuscript paper.

No doubt the clunk older programs are starting to catch up. Encore as well, but I haven't tried the new version.

Notion's website can be visited for a full description of their product and their unique features. Maybe less unique by now than before. I liked their support for tablature "just in case", and their early adoption of MusicXML. Also 1000 levels of parameters vs. MIDI's 128.
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Well the critical thing for notation (at least if you are doing it professionally) is page layout. How it sits on the page is everything. Finale does this quite well, IMO. I recently discovered the staff style "hide and collapse" which hides empty staves and also "collapses" them but doesn't require the page or system margins to be adjusted. That alone saves many hours of work and makes page turns much easier to accomplish in an intelligent way. That's the kind of stuff I appreciate in a notation program, as well as ease of use.

I looked at the Notion website and there is nothing about page layout options. They don't even mention it. I'd hate to buy it to do an orchestral score and not know ahead of time that the page layout features were not as good as Finale's. As for Sibelius audio sample of the Brahms 3rd - that's a deal breaker right there. 24GB of samples and that's the best they can do?
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by mjmoody »

I have used Finale since 1993, and I purchased Sibelius 6 because of the "magnetic layout" features. The "magnetic layout" feature is truly amazing - however, I found note entry extremely frustrating. Note entry is so easy in finale with "Speedy Entry."

I think Finale 2011 is a really wonderful program. My favorite Finale releases include Finale 2005, and now, Finale 2011.

Finale is the only program I know of that has any control of the left margin of a score page. One of the problems all of the programs have, I think, is the ability to display two-parts per stave on some pages, and split parts on other pages. Finale can do this - and fairly easily. I don't think Sibelius has a very efficient way of doing this, and I couldn't find any evidence of them including this ability with instrument names in Sibelius 7.

Because of "Staff Styles," Finale can easily change how pages look, including the left margin. It even has a nifty way of creating individual linked parts for music that is written for two parts being written on one stave (with the occasional two staves on some pages). I just don't see anything like that in Sibelius. For clarification, in Finale you can have a part labeled Flute 1,2 for most of the score, with a few pages of two staves with Flute 1 and Flute 2, and still create individual linked parts. Sibelius doesn't have anything like this feature.

Now, I have to admit that I tend to just take my laptop and write music - without it being connected to any kind of MIDI piano, or anything. So, I just write stuff in Finale with Speedy entry and the computer keyboard. Because of this preferred way of entering music to me, I found Sibelius very difficult. It was very hard for me to just enter chords in Sibelius. I'm not seeing much of a difference in the workflow with these "Finale-based" videos on the Sibelius site. This may not be an issue if you just play chords in with a MIDI keyboard.

Anyway, after trying Sibelius 6 and Finale 2011 I decided to just use Finale - I have much more control over the score with Finale. I think Finale 2011 is the best Finale program they have had since Finale 2005. I am looking forward to Finale 2012 which should be released some time in the Fall. I am hoping that they will come up with some version of "magnetic layout," but who knows?? I know that they have delayed introducing the new product for the first time in many, many years. I am hoping this delay means they are making it even better.

It looks to me like this knew version of Sibelius would essentially keep the same note entry problems I have experienced in Sibelius 6, and I also can't find any evidence of being able to have any control with the left margin of a score. To me, these points are pretty big, and I will probably just pass on the update and wait for the Finale update.
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Re: Sibelius goes all Finale on it's own ass!

Post by Frodo »

mhschmieder wrote:Did Encore go away a second time or is that an historical observation?
No, Encore is still around. In the current context of integration and user prefs, Sibelius and Finale remain at the top of the list.

Thing is, Encore compatibility features *used* to be included in Finale's menus. "Import from Encore" was commonplace, once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away, somewhere in the shire.

Poof!! It disappeared. Why? It was the promise of XML cross-compatibility, the strong presence of Sibelius, and needs of an earnest notation market.

There's absolutely nothing against the notion of Notion. Set aside user prefs for a sec and consider just what developers could do at the moment. Maybe if MOTU would adopt Finale into QS the way ProTools has taken on Sibelius--- and (only a question) if Nuendo or Logic would adopt Notion...

Dunno-- just a thought in an effort to level the playing field.

My vote is for what works.
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