How the heck do you pan orchestral instruments?

[David Polich]

I know the general consensus is first violins hard left, cellos hard right, but beyond that I cannot
find any single "standard" for panning orchestral instruments, particularly the basses. I notice that
in most TV soundtracks, the basses seem to be centered. French horns usually appear on the left,
however, I've encountered mixes where the trumpets are also on the left, with trombones on the
right, and vice versa. Percussion is either hard left or right, but again, sometimes it is centered.
Solo woodwinds sometimes appear panned way left or way right - like the bassoon player or the first flautist
is off in the wings somewhere - but it's effective. I know in a "real orchestra" the woodwinds
usually occupy the middle of the stage.

My question would be - should I treat an orchestral mix like a pop song mix, with the "bass" in the
middle and similar frequency instruments panned opposite each other? If I follow the "classic"
concept of orchestral seating, my mix often sounds lopsided, being bass heavy on the right
and high-frequency heavy on the left and in the middle.

How do you "gurus" approach this?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Hey Dave,

I'm no guru, but I'll add my 2¢ anyway.

As for the basses, their sound tends to be non-directional in the real world, so I'd place it center and let it fill the space - maybe slightly over to the right as they always appear on the right of the stage (conductor's perspective). Other instruments usually get placed "by taste" and offer different sonic experiences as a result, but there are some general principles that most orchestras follow. As you face the orchestra, brass on the R, French Horns center, percussion on the left (including piano). Winds spread center. Strings: Vln I front L to C, Vln II front L - C, Vla R to C, Cellos R to C.

The Rochester Phil places the tymp behind the brass. I've played tymp in orchestras and usually found myself to the right of the percussion, but not behind the brass. Here are a few things to look at. I'd personally never place orchestral sound hard L or R as sound simply doesn't work that way. Even a slight cheat toward center goes a long way to having a full sound, especially during solo or soli sections. Here are a few maps to help you, but you'll notice they don't match and the type of music may change how you set it up (Baroque, v. Romantic v modern, etc.). Another thing to consider is distance from the listener. If you have a giant sized flute and a weeny sized brass section playing at disparate levels it's going to sound unrealistic so reverb and volume levels are also critical. The nice thing about working digitally is you can actually have the brass play at a lower volume. That's not always possible in the real world.

Rochester Phil



How Emu sets things up



And others from this Google search

[David Polich]

Thanks for the great response! I'll print out these seating maps.

What you say makes sense - I do notice, however, that in some soundtracks when it
comes time for a soloist (flute, trumpet, oboe, bassoon, or whatever), or a featured
section, there is obviously a fader move up for it (that, or there
are fader moves for the rest of the sections to bring them
down in volume). Which I suppose would correlate to a situation
'where you had mic setups for each section of the orchestra on a scoring stage.

It seems I still have to make an orchestral mix dynamic, I can't just set
levels and leave them. I have to bring things in and out of the mix, and
sometimes mute things.

[jroadrage]

One more important thing to keep in mind with orchestral mockups is the stereo width of the soloists vs sections and close vs far. If you're mixing something from a library like VSL which has a very wide stereo field than its probably a good idea to collapse the stereo field using something like an S-1 or even the trim plug in DP. I usually end up squeezing most of the soloist and percussion patches down to 15% or so of their original width, but like most things its always material dependent.

I also wouldn't be too concerned with feeling like you have to adhere to traditional orchestral layouts. Those charts are a really good starting point and helpful to have on hand but there's nothing wrong with deviating from a typical layout if the material can benefit from it. Just listen to a variety of concert or film recordings and you'll hear a lot of variations on positioning and imaging, especially when a track or a cue only features a small amount of the orchestra.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I also wouldn't be too concerned with feeling like you have to adhere to traditional orchestral layouts. Those charts are a really good starting point and helpful to have on hand but there's nothing wrong with deviating from a typical layout if the material can benefit from it. Just listen to a variety of concert or film recordings and you'll hear a lot of variations on positioning and imaging, especially when a track or a cue only features a small amount of the orchestra.

Absolutely! I thought he was looking for something to mimic a "true" sound, but as he also wrote, it is also necessary to bring out certain instruments and sections. Even Respighi placed trumpets in organ lofts and in the rear of the house

[Nigel Keay]

I've seen a number of orchestras in France (including the French National Orchestra) use the seating layout where the viola section is at the front right fanning out in a long line as in this Cleveland Orchestra diagram.