A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

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darrell
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A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by darrell »

Hi there. Anyone care to comment, compare, or criticize on these 2 notation programs? I purchased Finale 2014 on a student discount, but find the interface doesn't interface so well with my tiny brain. The folks in my composition class get wonderful results with it, but for me finding/using commands is like pulling chicken teeth!

My instructor says Finale is good for working with more modern scores, which I can use, because it has a lot of non-traditional items that can be plugged into the scores.

I think the online Finale tutorials are a great resource, but some things are beyond me, like the cross clefs procedure, as an example.

So, and this sounds like a probable dumb question, but should I consider spending $$ and jump to Sibelius, Encore, etc, or will studying Finale (RTFM) pay off the way I think it should?

thanks!
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by leigh »

I started with Finale 1.0. In 2010 I switched to Sibelius because Finale wouldn't work with my Metric Halo interface and Make Music essentially said, "Oh, yes, it's a Finale bug; you're out of luck." Even Sweetwater tech support could get nothing from them. I was fed up with them over the years not fixing things so I got Sibelius and learned it writing a 10-minute orchestra piece.

I prefer it to Finale because, for the way I work, it doesn't get in my way creatively. If I want to do something new in Sibelius, often the first thing I try is what works. Finale's UI has always felt clunky to me. The Sibelius UI feels seamless to me.

I think Sibelius is probably able to handle most modern composition techniques. I'm not an engraver, though, so if that's important to you, maybe someone here with engraving experience will chime in. If your instructor has no substantial Sibelius experience, you might want your salt shaker nearby when considering his opinion.

I have Finale 2012 and still use it for converting older work to MusicXML.

Other more experienced Finale and Sibelius users will have their takes.

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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by mikehalloran »

I use Finale and Encore. I don't like Sibelius.

Finale is more up to date than Sibelius. The 7.5 update was years overdue and is supposed to be a temporary patch till 8 is released (that was 18 months ago). There are things in Sibelius that make you shake your head and say what the ...? Parts of it haven't been looked at in a decade at least. OTOH, street $ for the cross-grade from Finale is $200.

Yes, Finale can make you shake your fist and howl at the moon, also (especially the first releases of 2014!), But it's the devil I know and I find it extremely good.

Unless your notation needs are simple, you do not want Encore. OTOH, if simple, down and dirty notation is all you need, Encore may just be the ticket. I have four licenses and my wife will not use anything else. Competitive upgrade (crossgrade) is $129.95.

I have owned over 20 notation programs for the Mac. That is not exaggeration. I have three currently. Besides Finale 2014 and Encore 5.0.7, I have SmartScore X2 Pro.

Like most SmartScore users, I never use its notation features. Instead I use it to scan scores into Finale via MusicXML. There's a Lite version bundled with Finale that doesn't support the full feature set of MusicXML.

Though SmartScore X2 Pro will work with Sibelius, most users use PhotoScore Ultimate because of the Lite version bundled with Sibelius.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

There should be a free trial for Sibelius. I can't figure out the workflows in Sibelius but find Finale intuitive and flexible.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by stubbsonic »

I'm kind of in a similar boat/camp (it is kind of a boat camp). I tried Finale a long time ago and had a bad first impression. Then I tried Sibelius within the last 4 years, and found it to be kind of a mixed bag. Some things made great sense, but some things were stupid, particularly the docs and support. The photo-score thing was kind of a joke. It was not ready for prime time.

Then I decided to give Finale another try, but I use notation so rarely that I need to bite the bullet and do a big project with it just to cut my teeth.

I expect the resources for Finale are there for learning.

The other impression I get is that while Finale has a steeper learning curve, the tools make things quicker in the end.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Funny, maybe it's because I was under a very serious deadline (the Olympics) back in 1996 when I bought Finale for my first big orchestral score, but I took to it immediately. I understand the way things are organized and while the deep menu and dialogue boxes were sometimes confusing, I was able to learn the basics of the program in about 3 days - at least enough to get the score done.

When I was under commission from the Chicago Symphony in 2006, the librarian who was assigned to me was using Sibelius and swore by it and we never agreed about the two programs. She was, of course, both brilliant and fluent in Sibelius, so it is possible. But as I've stated many times before, I bought Sibelius and tried it for a year and just never took to it.

I should add that a good keyboard macro program (Keyboard Maestro now - Quickeys until a few months ago) is essential for my use in Finale, as is my eleven-button, two-wheel Logitech MX Revolution and SteerMouse as the driver. Without those tools I think Finale would be intolerable, so my suggestion is to try it after setting up some serious macros.

And all THAT said, I'm also looking very seriously at StaffPad and a Windows 8.1 touchscreen machine. I'm certain I'd port that stuff to Finale, but on a PC Finale is supposed to be a much better program.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by darrell »

Thanks guys,

This is all really useful information, and just what I was looking for!

darrell
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by mikehalloran »

Then I decided to give Finale another try, but I use notation so rarely that I need to bite the bullet and do a big project with it just to cut my teeth.
My epiphany came in 1998. That big project was something I could not consider doing in Encore and I took advantage of an inexpensive cross-grade. The learning curve for the tools I needed was surprisingly easy.

I still used Encore in my church work as does my wife in hers.

In Ireland, my daughter's school was a Sibelius shop as is often the case in the British isles but she just couldn't get into it and stayed with Finale as she used at UC. That was 2005-2006. I don't think it's an issue in Vermont where she's finishing her Masters in composition. I can't budge her into DP from Logic but that's another issue.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by mhschmieder »

Mike, don't worry about the Logic vs. DP issue -- Apple hasn't been very good about sticking with products long-term. :lol:

I know a lot of people are nervous about switching to Logic when they dump Windows for OS X (a growing trend), after seeing what has become of apps like Aperture and even Final Cut (Pro).

I may eventually take advantage of the Sibelius cross-grade just as backup insurance in case Finale goes away at some point, but had VERY bad luck with their more recent demo versions (crashes, failure to start, corruption of other things on my system, unending fonts issues, etc.).

The game may have changed a bit recently with PreSonus taking over Notion and starting to integrate it with StudioOne, along with Steinberg (or former Steinberg people?) starting a new notation program from scratch.

For now though, Finale seems healthier than a few years ago, and there seems to be no impending sense of doom. Even Sibelius has revived, after Avid's initial disastrous decision to lay off the entire British staff. I don't know the current status, but people are no longer as worried as before about support and/or updates coming to an end.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by mhschmieder »

FYI Sweetwater is advertising Sibelius 8, yet a Google search finds nothing on it (nor a visit to Avid's website). In fact, the most recent buzz about the possible release was months ago.

Of note, they list an annual "cross grade subscription" for about 65% of the cost of a normal cross grade or upgrade path (from what I can tell). That's putting a lot of faith in its future. :-)

I have no idea whether the description of Sibelius 8 corresponds strictly to its new features, but it is said to specifically support Windows tablets for touch and pen-based composing.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by liquiddp »

If you get a chance try Presonus's Notion 5. Its not as advanced as finale or sibelius But its a cross between a DAW and a notation program. And its relatively cheap. I dont see it as a replacement for either of the big two. but someday it will.. i think

I just wish a company would come up with a notation system that was deeply integrated with a DAW. Meaning, the articulations would translate and it would have all the bells and whistles of sibelius and finale. I think Daniel Spradbury is aiming for that with Cubase and whatever it is the old sibelius developers are working on. Guess we will see.

IMHO DP has the best notation in a DAW.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by DanielCoe »

Finale 2012/2014 and Sibelius 6 are what I see doing copying work here in LA. Few have moved to Sibelius 7 and finale is used by the majority of the composers and orchestrators I've worked with. Recently, I was using both programs on a Klaus Badelt film and the new Star Wars Battlefront game. It depends on who is doing the orchestration.

Personally, I like how quickly Sibelius can do many things such as changing note and rest values related to MIDI cleanup, but I use finale primarily these days, even though I started with Sibelius. Some things are oddly located given the long history of the program and its initial programming but after that, everything is pretty logically organized via Tools. Getting fast on finale is a skill with a steep learning curve and it is only accomplished IMO with the use of QuicKeys. The right click menus have a lot to offer but not the finer details.

Bottom line, there are so many useful programs out there with which to produce quality notation, but the most popular (because of their versatility) are Sibelius and Finale.


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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Quickeys may not last long. I moved to Keyboard Maestro which has a similar learning curve to Finale, but it's also worth the effort and it's inexpensive.

I'd add that a multi-button pointing device is a giant sized help along with a robust driver such as Steer Mouse or USB Overdrive.

I could never wrap my head around Sibelius. I "got" Finale in 3 days.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by mikehalloran »

I am doing a production of The Mountebanks in August. It's the first production in 50 years and we are using a reconstruction of the original Gilbert/Cellier score - the first time since the original production.

The score has occasional missing or doubled stave lines. This is a problem I remember from Encore 4.1.2 and earlier. The slurs look too good for Encore (even the current version - I usually know Encore when I see it). Is this an old Sibelius bug, too? I don't remember this from any build of Finale that I have used.

It bugs me to have to use 'professional' scores that are hard to read because the arranger isn't up to date.
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Re: A new question: Finale vs Sibelius

Post by Rick Cornish »

Like many, I have a love/hate with Finale. Admittedly, I don't use it regularly enough to get really proficient and—having once paid the rent as a copyist—find it frustrating when I come back after a long break and have to re-learn. It's also felt like an app written by PC guys that feels a bit clumsy on the Mac.

That said, I haven't found anything I needed to notate that I couldn't notate in Finale. The new version has become much more intuitive. It's been extremely helpful in helping me fix up parts for the city band I'm conducting this summer (turning a Baritone Bass Clef part into a Baritone Treble Clef part was a piece of cake).

Tried Sibelius once on a friend's system and never felt comfortable. Not a fair comparison, but just my impression.

I think notation on a computer is a bit like working in PhotoShop. It takes effort and practice to learn, whatever app you choose to work in. For me, it ultimately came down to the fact that everyone I know works in Finale (publishers, copyists, arrangers), so it just made more sense for me to stay with Make Music and not venture away.
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