828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb reset

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TracesOfNut
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828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb reset

Post by TracesOfNut »

Hi All,

I am trying to work though a problem I am having and thought I would see if anyone had any clues.

quick version:

All audio stops. Audio input still appears on the Motu front panel. The Moto drivers still call the software through asio as expected, but no audio data is transferred. CueMix FX also indicates that there is no audio. Unplug/plug usb fixes it.

long version:

I have two 828mk III's that are a couple of months old and few actual operating hours. One is connected to the other via ADAT and mixing configured so that 16 channels are available to Windows through the other through usb. This works well.

We have our own software which connects to the motu's via the asio. This has worked without issue for over 5 years with M-Audio 1010Lt's. The system generally runs for 5 days straight.

The latest problem occurs after running the software for a number of hours. I am not sure how long yet, as it occurs overnight.

As far as my software is concerned, the motu driver is still calling though asio buffer switch callback every 12ms or so. The incoming audio is all zeros and outgoing audio doesn't make it to the 828's.

The panel on the front of the 828's indicate the incoming audio levels.

When I open CueMix FX, the meters tab shows all of the inputs and outputs in a frozen state. Some levels are zero and others are on full. The CueMix software isn't frozen, just the levels.

I log all asio messages that indicate and changes or resets etc and nothing appears. I am timing/logging all software routines that run during the asio buffer switch to check for over or under runs etc. At present, my buffer switch processing is over in about 0.5 milliseconds and at 44100hz 512 samples/sec, the process runs at about 2% of processor time. The whole pc sits at about 10% of processor time.

The 828 was plugged in using USB3 when things went pear shaped. I will try using USB2 for another test.

My current setup is.
Dell Optiplex 7040 i5-6500
Windows 7 64Bit with 8GB
MOTU Driver: 4.0.6.6814
Firmware: 1.01, boot: 1.0

The PC I am using is new. Any kind of power saving options have been turned off (screen saver, power down etc).

I have disabled the MOTU audio devices in the Windows Playback / Record device list (the actual MOTU driver is still active, windows just ignores them). Previously when I had this problem or similar, I could use the test feature in the Windows playback device list. I have also disabled the MIDI device driver just in case.

In the Motu Audio Console, I have unchecked "User Stereo Pairs.." and "Use WAVERT for .."

I contacted the local MOTU support guys, but I don't suspect they will be able to help until I can get more information or isolate the problem.

I will send Motu something and see if I can get any driver errors logged etc.

plans for testing

I have a constant audio source now which my software will record to disk so I will be able to determine how long it runs until.

I will swap the two unit around just in case the main one has a faulty usb. I have a m-audio usb device which I can use to see if it is just a windows/software issue.

I will also try another pc.

These will take time to test properly as the problem takes a while to appear.

summary
We have a big show in a few weeks and would like to use the new system, so any help, advice or wild stabs in the dark would be appreciated.

At the moment, changing the software from using asio to windows audio is not an option.


I have had other problems in the past on different PC. On both a Windows 7 32bit and Windows 10 64bit, when I unplugged the 828, I got the blue screen of death. This only happened a couple of times but though. I had other problems that required a reboot or where the driver would freeze and I couldn't open via asio until I closed CueMix or anything else that had the device opened.
TracesOfNut
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by TracesOfNut »

i just checked the slave units clock source and it was set to internal again.

I changed it to ADAT Optical A and will start testing again.

Hopefully that was the cause, although I am not optimistic.
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terrybritton
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by terrybritton »

I've been through this myself with both an Ultralite mk3 hybrid and an 828 mk3 hybrid.

It did seem to be the machine(s) were losing sync and freezing up. I had the Ultralite going via S/PDIF into the 828. The same thing happened when I had tried daisy-chaining the two units together via Firewire. And it happened when going via S/PDIF from the 828 into the Ultralite.

The long and the short of it is that I tried a million things, but what finally worked semi-permanently (at the time - see below) was to stop trying to connect the two units via digital means expecting them to hold sync. A telltale sign on my units is that the sync lights on one or both units would start blinking whenever this freeze happened. I now connect the two units via regular audio cables - in the analog realm - but these units have such great A/D and D/A converters that I don't sweat it one bit.

I've tried so many things before! I disabled the memory-stick/card reader unit, and it seemed to help -- for a while. I've gone into the device manager and turned off the "MOTU Audio Wave for 64 bit" device (NOT the "MOTU Audio" one, which is the ASIO driver).

(I actually find those WDM drivers cause a different problem whenever your content changes sample rate - they "creak" and grind gears while changing their internal rates inside the boxes! But that is not related to this problem of "freezing" I do not believe. BTW - these do not appear to be WASAPI drivers, but WDM/KS ones, as there is no exclusive/shared mode setting in evidence.)

The unfortunate result, if this is true that digital connections between units lose sync, is that your dream of passing those 8 channels via the ADAT pipe are dashed. I had a free analog input to use on my 828 for the Ultralite's output, but I only needed two!

But then I still got these spikes, freezes and dropouts occasionally, on both units, and reasoned it through that it might be brownouts (dips in the voltage) contributing to the problem. Simply changing out what outlets I was plugged into and what other things were plugged into the same household circuit breaker solved the issue, and I now can use the S/PDIF connection again. See this thread starting here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62688#p537182

I'm following this thread, so if you discover anything else, I'm definitely interested in what you find.

If you end up trying to remove the drivers to re-install them, see this post here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36522&p=514355

One final thought - do be certain your video card's driver is the latest -- unless you know it was the latest when all this started, in which case, try rolling it back to a previous version. Video drivers can wreak havoc on multimedia timing!

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
PoliticalBonobo
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by PoliticalBonobo »

I am also curious how this is resolved. I'm having a "freezing" issue, which may be similar. I picked up a new MOTU 624, and it stops outputting audio after a few seconds (testing on DP9.1 and simply playing youtube videos). I'm not daisy-chaining any other hardware into it via ADAT or anything. Sometimes the processor meter in DP will be completely spiked red, and all I get is distorted chopped audio. Other times it seems to work just fine, then after an hour *POOF*, no audio output. Going into the interface properties sometimes re-triggers it and gets it going again. I've gone through similar Windows optimizations as OP has.

One thing I didn't try was plugging the 624 on it's own outlet.

I am working with MOTU on this.
DP9.5 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, UA Apollo Quad FireWire interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 48gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive). VEP 6
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terrybritton
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by terrybritton »

YouTube videos come in at 44,100 and 48,000, and you never know what they are using. The MOTU drivers do not seem capable of sample rate conversion - rather, they crank the insides of the hardware to match the incoming sample rate. This takes a while, and seems cantankerous, sometimes throwing the entire system into a frenzy.

I've taken to using Voicemeeter (...or its big brother, Voicemeeter Pro "Banana") and its excellent sample rate conversion capabilities for day-to-day Windows audio tasks, hooked into my MOTU interface via ASIO through the A1 monitor (which sets up all of Voicemeeter to use that device's buffer settings). With Voicemeeter set as my default audio device for playback in Windows' audio settings, I never have seen the problem arise again. In fact, I have disabled "MOTU Audio Wave for 64 bit" entirely in the Device Settings now. Voicemeeter has made a tremendous difference for me!

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
PoliticalBonobo
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by PoliticalBonobo »

YouTube videos come in at 44,100 and 48,000, and you never know what they are using. The MOTU drivers do not seem capable of sample rate conversion - rather, they crank the insides of the hardware to match the incoming sample rate. This takes a while, and seems cantankerous, sometimes throwing the entire system into a frenzy.
Wow, so YouTube is actually a terrible way to be testing my MOTU interface connection then. I'll try the VoiceMeeter app. Just so I'm clear, does VoiceMeeter handle anything with DP, or is it just handling Windows audio conversions?

Fyi, I try to keep the MOTU Pro Audio driver settings at 48kHz rate, 256 buffer on the 624.
DP9.5 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, UA Apollo Quad FireWire interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 48gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive). VEP 6
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terrybritton
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by terrybritton »

PoliticalBonobo wrote:
YouTube videos come in at 44,100 and 48,000, and you never know what they are using. The MOTU drivers do not seem capable of sample rate conversion - rather, they crank the insides of the hardware to match the incoming sample rate. This takes a while, and seems cantankerous, sometimes throwing the entire system into a frenzy.
Wow, so YouTube is actually a terrible way to be testing my MOTU interface connection then. I'll try the VoiceMeeter app. Just so I'm clear, does VoiceMeeter handle anything with DP, or is it just handling Windows audio conversions?

Fyi, I try to keep the MOTU Pro Audio driver settings at 48kHz rate, 256 buffer on the 624.
One can actually use Voicemeeter as an ASIO device for the DAW (Virtual ASIO or VAIO), but for the DAW I'd recommend just going straight to the MOTU ASIO. (You'll have to shut down Voicemeeter from the menu when opening the DAW if you were outputting to the MOTU ASIO device from it (recommended), as ASIO can only have one thing controlling it at a time. Voicemeeter somewhat can give you a workaround to that situation of needing two ASIO devices at once connected to the MOTU, if you ever need that.)

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
PoliticalBonobo
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by PoliticalBonobo »

terrybritton wrote:One can actually use Voicemeeter as an ASIO device for the DAW (Virtual ASIO or VAIO), but for the DAW I'd recommend just going straight to the MOTU ASIO. (You'll have to shut down Voicemeeter from the menu when opening the DAW if you were outputting to the MOTU ASIO device from it (recommended), as ASIO can only have one thing controlling it at a time. Voicemeeter somewhat can give you a workaround to that situation of needing two ASIO devices at once connected to the MOTU, if you ever need that.)

Terry
I might need some ASIO 101 but don't want to hijack OP's thread. On my UR44 interface, I can open DP and YouTube/Spotify at the same time, going back and forth playing audio in each without any issues. I guess the UR44 is able to switch what program uses the ASIO driver? And if the MOTU drivers don't do sample rate conversion, how will DP handle audio files that are different sample rates than the project?
DP9.5 64bit, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, UA Apollo Quad FireWire interface, Desktop: Intel i7 5820K at 4.0ghz, MSI X99A Gaming 7 mobo, 48gb RAM (DDR4 at 2133 mhz), MSI GTX 960 2GD5T 2GB, 512GB Samsung 950 Pro m.2 SSD (project/system drive). VEP 6
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terrybritton
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by terrybritton »

PoliticalBonobo wrote:I might need some ASIO 101 but don't want to hijack OP's thread. On my UR44 interface, I can open DP and YouTube/Spotify at the same time, going back and forth playing audio in each without any issues. I guess the UR44 is able to switch what program uses the ASIO driver? And if the MOTU drivers don't do sample rate conversion, how will DP handle audio files that are different sample rates than the project?
The UR44 Windows drivers must handle sample rate conversion more eloquently. (It is not switching what program uses the ASIO driver - it is using its WDM/KS or, more likely, its WASAPI drivers to do the Windows audio stuff. Those (ASIO versus WDM or WASAPI) are two separate drivers that can exist and access the hardware device side-by-side.)

DP does sample rate conversion to match the setting set in the ASIO config page, I suppose. On most DAWs, you get a warning if the file you are loading does not match the ASIO sample rate settings, and some offer to do a sample rate conversion for you as you load it. They do have to all match! :D

But that is a different issue than the issue of playing Windows audio.

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
TracesOfNut
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by TracesOfNut »

Hi All,

short version - on their own with just the mixer running, they crapped out after 30 minutes.

I was really hoping the clock source setting on the second unit was the problem.

Yesterday it ran for over 12 hours without any problems.

This morning I thought everything was normal. It had been running for about 6 hours. The input levels were indicating that the signal generator was still making it through to the PC. Unfortunately, it sounded dirty and the motu oscilloscope shows that the same packet of slightly corrupted audio data was coming through the asio buffer switch (part of the sine wave was being cut off).

I also had a very high pitch tone going out on a different channel. This changed pitch and eventually stopped over a couple of minutes. None of it was indicated in the Motu Mixer levels or oscilloscope.

Thanks terry for your comments. I feel better (in a depressing way) that this has happened before. My boss bought four of these so he isn't going to be too happy.

It could be power related, the lights have dimmed briefly a few times over the last week, but during those instance, audio kept going. In a few days, on location the power supply should be more consistent.

As I am typing this, I am feeding in the signal generator on channel 1 and using CueMix Mixer setting to return it through ADAT channel 7&8. About 30 minutes later, and it has lost the plot. The waveform on the oscilloscope shows that the audio had frozen. The main channel (output?) on the 828's panel now shows full full volume ( i guess that is a frozen loud pop that others have experienced ). So I am reasonable satisfied that my software isn't causing a problem.

I have changed the second unit to get its synch from the world clock input instead of adat. This comes out of the main unit using the bnc type cables. I will let
that run for a while.

Next I will try putting in on a PC that doesn't have an on board video card, or I might check if I can disable the on board video on this PC and remote into it.
TracesOfNut
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by TracesOfNut »

using the world clock from the main unit has the same freezes as using adat for synch.
TracesOfNut
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by TracesOfNut »

Hi All,

We tested the second pair of 828's on a new PC the same thing happens.

This time we were also getting random MIDI and "adat b" activity indicated on the front panels with nothing connected. I don't even think adat b is enabled.

The engineers say race control is under UPS and there is no-one else here at the moment, so I don't think power quality is an issue.

Time to find the receipt.
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terrybritton
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by terrybritton »

TracesOfNut wrote:Time to find the receipt.
Yep.

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
paletti
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by paletti »

Hi Guys I just got the 624 and i`m having the same problem audio just stops,but very big but only on 44.1khz,so if i play projects at 48khz no issue at all but when i turn back to 44.1 the usb connection seems like crashing.
This is happening on one particular laptop that i wanted to use with the 624.
Hi Spec laptop.
I connected it to a much older pc like not even pentium 3 it works without any problems.
Very strange i`ve been trying to solve this for 4 days im going nuts.
the model of the laptop is Acer Aspire V5-591G.
Peace
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terrybritton
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Re: 828mk III - Windows - audio stops, asio ok until usb res

Post by terrybritton »

paletti wrote:Hi Guys I just got the 624 and i`m having the same problem audio just stops,but very big but only on 44.1khz,so if i play projects at 48khz no issue at all but when i turn back to 44.1 the usb connection seems like crashing.
This is happening on one particular laptop that i wanted to use with the 624.
Hi Spec laptop.
I connected it to a much older pc like not even pentium 3 it works without any problems.
Very strange i`ve been trying to solve this for 4 days im going nuts.
the model of the laptop is Acer Aspire V5-591G.
Peace
What you said about the older PC not working makes it sound like a USB3 issue. Does that Acer have a USB2 port? You many need to get a USB2 hub.

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
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