Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

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Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. with Windows
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TheRealRoach
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Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by TheRealRoach »

Brief intro (feel free to skip this if you're familiar with this whole thing):
MOTU FW Audio worked great under XP SP1, flawless I would say. SP2 it was broken for many users: sync issues with multiple MOTUs, audio drop outs, stutters, squeals... and these problems get worse as your lower your buffer size. SP3 was the same thing, Vista is the same thing. Drivers 3.6.7.x seem to be favorites for those in XP, while drivers 3.6.8.x seem to work better for Vista because of the new windows RT support (which is similar in nature to OSX's core-audio. The new 3.6.8.x can mess things up for 828mk1, 896mk1 users though). Running a pair of identical MOTU FW units is the best barometer for measuring FW stability. On system idle - with no DAW loaded - the sample clock LEDs should be locked and solid on the same rate. They should NEVER blink (and it's worth noting that they will hold for up to 30 seconds or more and then blink a couple of times as they fall out of sync).

One workaround that seems to work for many users under the XP platform is to replace the ohci1394.sys and 1384bus.sys files from SP2 with the versions from SP1. The main problem with the SP2 drivers being that Windows crippled FW performance from down to 100mbps. A patch was provided that subsequently required registry editing SidSpeed values to SidSpeed value #3. This combination of replacing Windows SP2 FW bus controller drivers with those from SP1, in conjunction with manually editing the registry to allow for full bandwidth 1394/firewire was the fix.

Along comes SP3 now and unfortunately the above fix does not work as predictably and success is not as repeatable (trust me I've been pulling my hair out for the past few days). The problem is that upon SP3 Windows said that any previous 1394 issues were automatically included as part of this service pack upgrade. Then came a press release saying that they had actually broken it again, and apparently in a different way. They provided a patch however it doesn't fully resolve the issue.

Then came Vista which is a hell-ish nightmare unto its own that is never convinced enough that I am indeed the owner of the computer and can do whatever the hell I want. But that's another can of worms. (Runny Vista on my mobile-recording laptop)

Unibrain - UbCore

So here I am now recently discovering that a 3rd part company called Unibrain that seems to specialize in FW PCI cards, FW cameras, etc has developed their own XP and Vista Firewire Bus Controller Drivers. There is a handy little application that comes with it to easily flip back and forth between the Microsoft and their "UbCore" drivers. These drivers have recently received "digital signing" from Microsoft as well!... which basically means that Microsoft stands behind them as legit replacement drivers. But it's not all rainbows yet. I installed the drivers and, while it detected my FW Hard Drives, it could not identify my MOTUs. Nothing I could do could convince XP or Vista to install the MOTU drivers for this unknown device.

However, I just found this post from 2007 on Motunation (the user owned a UniBrain FW card which, by default, requires the UbCore FW bus controller drivers to be installed):
I just figured out the problem! Turns out it was a driver issue. If you open the Motu_fw.inf file (located in the folder C:\Program Files\MOTU\Audio\MOTUDriver), you can see all the devices listed in the group called [DeviceList.ntx86]:

[DeviceList.ntx86]
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&1 ; 828
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&2 ; 896
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&3 ; 828mk2
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&5 ; 896HD
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&9 ; TRaveler
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&A ; traveler updater
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&D ; ultralite
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&E ; ultralite updater
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&F ; 8pre
%AUDIO828%=DriverInstall828,1394\1f2&10 ; 8pre updater

The bits at the end of each line ("1394\1f2&3", etc) is the Firewire device ID which Windows uses to find the proper driver in the MOTU .inf files. However, my SIIG card was using the UniBrain Firewire drivers, wich gave the ID of the MOTU unit as "UB1394\1f2&3", so Windows could not match the Firewire device with anything in MOTU's list.

So, I uninstalled the UniBrain drivers and let Windows use its own drivers which give the correct ID for the MOTU unit, and the 828mkII is back in business!
I am going to try what this user probably should have tried which is to manually edit the "Motu_fw.inf" file so that it will recognize the UbCore controller Windows FW bus properly. I'll do this when i get back to the studio later today. I'm keeping my fingers crossed as these drivers support both XP and Vista and would possibly help a great number of users.
Mike Rocha
http://www.mikerocha.ca
Custom ADK, Quad 3.0ghz, 4gig ram, Win7 64-bit, Motu 3.6.7.3 x64 drivers
Macbook Pro 13" touchbar, High Sierra, 73220 drivers
Motu 896 x 4
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TheRealRoach
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by TheRealRoach »

Ok So here's the update:
After a few emails back and forth it has been made clear that UniBrain has no desire to support professional audio with their drivers and nothing I could do could get the drivers to properly recognize the MOTU hardware - although my FW400 hard drives were blazing fast.

I've since discovered a new contender here:
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/t1394bus.shtml

I've requested a demo of their 1394a/b bus controller drivers for XP and Vista and will report back with findings.
Mike Rocha
http://www.mikerocha.ca
Custom ADK, Quad 3.0ghz, 4gig ram, Win7 64-bit, Motu 3.6.7.3 x64 drivers
Macbook Pro 13" touchbar, High Sierra, 73220 drivers
Motu 896 x 4
Mark S
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by Mark S »

well, I guess I won't be updating to sp3.

Thanks for the update. I'll be waiting for the report
briandeeley
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by briandeeley »

TheRealRoach wrote:Ok So here's the update:
After a few emails back and forth it has been made clear that UniBrain has no desire to support professional audio with their drivers and nothing I could do could get the drivers to properly recognize the MOTU hardware - although my FW400 hard drives were blazing fast.

I've since discovered a new contender here:
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/t1394bus.shtml

I've requested a demo of their 1394a/b bus controller drivers for XP and Vista and will report back with findings.
Hi, any news on this?
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TheRealRoach
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by TheRealRoach »

Well yes, but it comes with a catch.

Thesycon were kind enough to send me the demo which I haven't tried out yet because the price would make it totally restrictive. 1,000 Euros. The reason why it's so high is because the company caters to manufacturers and developers who are buying a big license. The only thing I could potentially - if it works - is to organize something through this forum and do a group buy at a greatly discounted rate. This I haven't talked to them about.
Mike Rocha
http://www.mikerocha.ca
Custom ADK, Quad 3.0ghz, 4gig ram, Win7 64-bit, Motu 3.6.7.3 x64 drivers
Macbook Pro 13" touchbar, High Sierra, 73220 drivers
Motu 896 x 4
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TheRealRoach
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by TheRealRoach »

Today I will be testing the above mentioned 3rd part FW bus host controller, as well as a new contender by AVT (which, unlike the above, is available for free). This would function as a more permanent solution for Firewire Bus woes (clicks, pops, glitches, squeals, daisy-chaining problems) IF it works.

For some reason, many video/camera manufacturers have taken it upon themselves to write OHCI 1394 Bus Contollers to finally replace the terrible Windows-supplied OHCI 1394 Bus Controllers that have been problematic for SP2, SP3 and Vista. Maybe the reason that audio companies haven't done it is because the problems aren't as noticeable as high-throughput video users (which makes audio throughput/bus requirements look like baby toys).

Wish me luck!
Mike Rocha
http://www.mikerocha.ca
Custom ADK, Quad 3.0ghz, 4gig ram, Win7 64-bit, Motu 3.6.7.3 x64 drivers
Macbook Pro 13" touchbar, High Sierra, 73220 drivers
Motu 896 x 4
pagehite
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by pagehite »

I tried the AVT drivers with 3 828mk3's, a TI chipset FW card and XP SP3.They caused a BSOD on my system. Your mileage may vary...
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TheRealRoach
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by TheRealRoach »

I loaded the AVT firewire bus drivers onto my laptop rig and it worked. I didn't have time to really put the system through its paces but I could run my two motu's at much lower latencies than were previously possible with the Windows OHCI 1394 bus controller driver active.

Here is a link if anyone else feels like doing some testing:

http://shop.avt-cameras.com/produktpage ... &r=shopavt

EDIT: updated URL
Last edited by TheRealRoach on Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Rocha
http://www.mikerocha.ca
Custom ADK, Quad 3.0ghz, 4gig ram, Win7 64-bit, Motu 3.6.7.3 x64 drivers
Macbook Pro 13" touchbar, High Sierra, 73220 drivers
Motu 896 x 4
pagehite
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Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:25 am
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by pagehite »

Can you run through exactly what you did? Did you uninstall MOTU drivers first? I notice you're running Cubase. I'm running Sonar 7.
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TheRealRoach
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by TheRealRoach »

Sure, here's a little more detail.

I did not do the driver switch on the system noted on my signature. It was on my sub-par vista-basic laptop, Celeron 1.73 single-core, 1.5gig ram, which is usually pretty telling as to whether something works or not. This is also running my 2 Motu 896 mk1's daisy-chained from my lacie FW800/400 PMCIA card.

Here's what I did in Vista:
[1.1] - Uninstall MOTU drivers. Nothing fancy... just run the standard uninstall through the Control Panel.
[1.2] - Disconnect all FW devices.
[1.3] - Reboot.
[2.1] - Install the AVT 1394 bus controller package.
[2.2] - Reboot.
[2.3] - Run the AVT utility to switch over to the AVT drivers.
[2.4] - Reboot.
[3.1] - Install Motu 3.6.8.1394
[3.2] - Shut Down.
[3.3] - Turn on MOTU #1
[3.4] - Boot computer. Vista should "find new hardware" and start installing drivers automatically. Could take up to a minute. It will tell you when everything is completed successfully.
[3.5] - Reboot, with MOTU #1 still on.
[4.1] - Once Vista is up, Turn on MOTU #2. Check in MOTU control Panel to be sure both are detected.
[4.2] - Reboot
[5.1] Run DAW with all the default settings in the MOTU control panel: WavesRT Checked, Stereo Pairs Checked.
Note: Skip [4.*] if you only have one motu. Likewise, repeat [4.*] for every MOTU you have daisy chained.

Notes: I encountered a pretty brutal BSOD on my first attempt to run the MOTU control panel, but I attribute this to a botched install (it froze during [3.1] the first time around).
Observations: I was able to run buffer of about 256 on this crummy laptop (approx 12ms round-trip latency) with both my 896's daisy chained, previously with the stock windows 1394 host bus controllers I could run 1024 buffer at best (approx 50ms round-trip latency) with just one hooked up.

I have not yet had the time to properly test this configuration but if anyone has the time before I do here's what you should do:
[1.1] - Set up your rig with the lowest useable buffer setting/latency your system can handle.
[1.2] - Load up a blank session and create an audio track for every one of your inputs available (16 analog inputs for me, for example).
[2.1] - Connect an audio source into every one of your inputs. There are a few ways you can do this (and you'll need lots of cables).
[2.2] - (The following assumes that you have dedicated outputs separate from your main stereo outputs) Run a mono test tone, preferably sine-wave 1,000hz, off of any track (you should be able to find an audio file, or create one), and send it out Output #1 (NOT your main outputs or you'll get some major feedback at some point).
[2.3] - Connect Output #1 to Input #1 and set up a channel to record this input. Also, set up this channel's output to Output #2.
[2.4] - Connect Output #2 to Input #2 and set up a channel to record this input. Also, set up this channel's output to Output #3.
[2.5] - etc. You get the point. We're basically creating a huge input and output chain to test if any "broken-telephone" happens. If ANY snaps/squeals/clicks happen at any point in the chain it will appear on the recorded tracks.
[3.1] - For good measure, this test should be run for 15 minutes.

Obviously if you don't have enough cables to rig up ALL of your analog ins and outs just do as many as you can. If this passes then congrats!, the next stage is stressing the system to see if it will buckle under load. Start loading up the same channels with various plugins - I usually use Waves SSL channel. Try not to use reverb since it would make any audio glitches less noticeable.
Mike Rocha
http://www.mikerocha.ca
Custom ADK, Quad 3.0ghz, 4gig ram, Win7 64-bit, Motu 3.6.7.3 x64 drivers
Macbook Pro 13" touchbar, High Sierra, 73220 drivers
Motu 896 x 4
pagehite
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by pagehite »

Are those latency measurements with ASIO or WDM? My issue is more syncing than latency. Can't worry about latency till the clocks sync. I can't even get them to sync with an external clock once i bring Sonar up.
briandeeley
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by briandeeley »

These look very interesting - many thanks for posting the link!!!!

Using the DPC latency checker after installing these, I'm always in the green! Never been that before. I'm getting a few pops and clicks in Sonar though. WMP11 is •••• as always. The driver has loads of options to tweak so I guess I'll play with those and report back if anything changes as a consequence.

BTW system is a laptop running Vista32, 2 x 2.5 Centrino + 4GB RAM, 2 x HDD, Nvidia Geforce 8400m GS.

FWIW the same system runs flawlessly in 64 bit Windows 7 Beta, but sadly some of my key plugins don't, so stuck with Vista (for now.....).

SB
Mark S
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by Mark S »

will those drivers work in XP?

answered my question myself:

Supported Operating Systems
- Windows Vista SP1
- Windows XP SP2/SP3
- Windows 2000 SP4

now, to find the download button

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TheRealRoach
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by TheRealRoach »

Something happened to the link. I fixed it. It'll take you to the download page. And, as you said, it supports both vista and XP, although I haven't tried on my XP yet.
Mike Rocha
http://www.mikerocha.ca
Custom ADK, Quad 3.0ghz, 4gig ram, Win7 64-bit, Motu 3.6.7.3 x64 drivers
Macbook Pro 13" touchbar, High Sierra, 73220 drivers
Motu 896 x 4
Mark S
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Re: Third Party 1394 bus controller drivers for XP and Vista

Post by Mark S »

,...plus I had the complicating factor of my browser not liking a script on the page that revealed the download buttons. Got it.

I'll be guardedly hopeful. I will install it at some point today on my XP pro X2 system.

I hope this works,...
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