Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling...

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FMiguelez
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Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling...

Post by FMiguelez »

As a loyal Motuan, this seems strange comming from me, but I like to be objective as much as I can.

I don't mean this post to be taken as negative. My intentions are just to, naively perhaps, try to get MOTU's attention, so they keep innovating and making DP better. Short of designing my own DAW, I don't see what else I can do about it other than venting here...
Here I go :roll:

So yesterday I spent my day at a friend's studio. He uses 2 of the youngest DAWs, one of them the one whose name rhymes with the nickname of certain pervert from old England. Sadly, I realized that, when it comes to MIDI note and CCs entering and editing, they simply BLOW - US - OUT - OF - THE - WATER .
Period.

Have you seen their editing tools? To my surprise, they make DP's look and feel clunky, clumsy and, frankly, toyish in comparisson.

Also, I saw first hand the wonderful ability of moving stuff around freely and NOT creating weird and unexpected CC and tempo ramps all over the place, as DP always does. Cutting, pasting and snipping always give clean and accurate results, no matter what you do or how many CCs and audio automation there is in any track.

The reason that this made me feel a bit bitter than expected is that I've complained and asked MOTU about this since DP4, and it's still as bad as always in DP9!
The fix, at least for this, is an extremely simple algorithm they could implement in probably one evening. But they haven't. WHY???

DP is still unique in many ways, and I won't be giving it up any time soon, but I would really like to see MOTU "modernize" many aspects of the program and give us better tools and features.

No more guitar plugins, please. I want to see real, innovative and cool features that let us work smarter and faster, with tools that do not require wasting time double checking and baby-sitting every track after simple arranging moves (see above).

I feel (not know) that they've wasted too many resources with their PreGen engine at the expense of basically stopping new feature development.

Like I said, based on what I saw from 2 of the "lesser" and youngest DAWs, DP is clearly no longer the MIDI king. It seems it's been demoted to a mere pawn in comparisson, and anyone who uses those DAWs or observes a user who knows what he is doing with them can not deny any of this.

I might get flamed for this. Bring it on, if you wish, but the fact will remain.

Have we slept on our laurels for too long? I think so...
The ball is on MOTU's court. Let us see what they come up with DPX. Hopefully they will address some of this and repair the parts of the program that are a disaster, such as:
-- the Comp tool and its resulting takes management: No option to make takes follow edits.
-- irreversibly messing up pitch automation after simple Conductor Track moves, such as tempo changes
-- takes not following global editing moves like snipping or moving the main take (could be optional, as discussed before ad nauseam)
-- folders being horribly clumsy and unreliable
-- moving, cutting, pasting and snipping stuff with CC, audio automation and/or Conductor Track tempo changes is a nightmare and ridiculously unreliable. It's an excercise of frustration. It ALWAYS creates unwanted and unexpected ramps
-- not being able to mute selected CCs ( ! ) without ridiculous workarounds
-- constant crashing with their own MF3 sampler
-- not being able to select tracks from the mixer
-- features that have never worked (Extract Tempo from MIDI)
-- Quick Scribe is a joke. Not having it wouldn't make much of a difference, really. How about implementing clef changes? Add dynamic marks? Simple slurs? Being able to establish rhythmic patterns in odd rhythms (2+2+3, 3+3+1, etc)?
-- tracks showing outside of the folder structure when importing clippings

... And all that is just fixing old things. What about comming up with great new features? Please notice what your competition is doing, and implement some of that in even better ways. We already have a looooooong "DP wish list" for your reference. Better yet, you could ASK US, your users, what we want and what we need.

MOTU??? What are you going to do about all this?
I can only hope DPX will be so much better and powerful. Hopefully this is why it is taking so long for this new version to materialize...

:unicorn:

I debated myself whether to write this here or in the theoretical section of the forum. AFAICS, this is not theoretical at all, but a very sobering reality. So I opted to write it here, where I, perhaps mistakingly, thought it belonged.

:surrender:

Thoughts/perspectives please?
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Gravity Jim »

No sarcasm or insult intended, FM.... but I feel like I've read this post (not from you, but from someone) at least twice a year since version 1.7.
Jim Bordner

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by FMiguelez »

Gravity Jim wrote:No sarcasm or insult intended, FM.... but I feel like I've read this post (not from you, but from someone) at least twice a year since version 1.7.
No sarcasm or insult taken, Jim. This is, after all, MOTUNation, DP's house, and I know some of you will disagree with me. And I wouldn't expect or want anything less from you guys!

But what does that comment mean?

Do you not find some of the above mentioned problems crippling or work-flow killers? I understand not all of us use or need those features, but I trust you can see how addressing those issues would make DP MUCH better, yes?

Or did that mean you think it's futile to ask MOTU for improvements? If some of those petitions have been asked since DP version 1.7, and they're still clunky, what does that say?

What else could a humble DP user like me do to be heard by MOTU?

I trust you feel there is AMPLE room for improvement with DP, yes? Or is it probably my crude comparissons and style that sort of put you a little off?

We all want the same thing: to make DP even better. How can we do that?
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Gravity Jim »

Call them up and talk to the sales guys.
Leave a Tech Note.
Write a long snail mail letter and send it to Cambridge.

For me, DP works just fine. Using MOTU software for over 20 years, I've just trained myself. I've auditioned other packages, and while they might have some really slick ways of doing tasks that are tedious in DP, they usually have tedious methods of doing things that are one-click easy in DP. But the biggest reason I stick with MOTU is that so many other DAWs do a terrible job of handling audio... smeared stereo, lack of sample accuracy, phase problems, and so on.

For example, one of the big complaints I see over and over again: "DP is WAY too slow bouncing to disc." You wanna guess why? Because DP is checking and rechecking to make sure that what comes in is what goes out. Logic flies through the task, but it produces bad audio.

There's a lot more to DP's superiority (for me, that is) than a few special buttons. If I have to do a few extra clicks on a MIDI edit to have DP's level of audio accuracy, well... okay.
Jim Bordner

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by cuttime »

Have you actually used the grim DAW? I tried it years ago and found it almost childishly simple. Perhaps the simplicity is an advantage. Perhaps things have changed since I last tried it. Why don't you take it for a spin and report back if you still feel the same way.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

FWIW, FM, I've been using DP to edit MIDI for about 20 years or longer and have never had a MIDI edit it couldn't handle. I suppose it may well be a matter of how one composes and produces, but that said - I do a range of projects from post audio and music for film, to theatrical and dance productions, to videos, promos, silent films, animation, etc., and I always seem to get finished in record time.

Yeah, there's always room for improvements and I'd LOVE to see robust notation from MOTU, even in a $2000 app if it was as good as DP. I just don't see that happening given the problems companies like Music and Avid have in porting those apps.

I would imagine someone using 100s of tracks for every articulation could get tired of clicking around. I simply refuse to fall into that trap. As stated earlier, if someone wants real sounding instruments they need to hire really great players. Period. If I'm delivering an electronic product, I'll do my best to replicate the required instrumentation, but it's gonna be electronic and ultimately, good ears will hear that right away. But I digress... :unicorn:
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by stubbsonic »

I completely agree with you, FMiguelez, that DP has a long and persisting list of persistent weaknesses. Obviously, it is a mixed bag, as DP does MANY things extraordinarily well. But things like frequent crashes, tiny velocity & tempo handles, weird selection, dragging, scrubbing and other glitches; sucks creative juice out of me.

When a new version comes out, I look for things that have been broken to be fixed and usually they aren't.

My recent experience with support denying there is a particular problem, then blaming the problem on 3rd party VI's (even though I demonstrated it is also an issue with their own VIs), then saying they'll let me know if they figure anything out. I'm usually the first person to assume the best intensions with people and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the exchange just really was invalidating and frustrating.

BTW, I don't know what DAW you are talking about. (Old Eng Perv?)
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by FMiguelez »

Gravity Jim wrote:Call them up and talk to the sales guys.
Leave a Tech Note.
Write a long snail mail letter and send it to Cambridge.
I'll try some of that. I won't hold my breath, though.
Gravity Jim wrote: There's a lot more to DP's superiority (for me, that is) than a few special buttons. If I have to do a few extra clicks on a MIDI edit to have DP's level of audio accuracy, well... okay.
But I'm asking for much more than a few "special buttons"...

Some of the problems I mentioned above, particularly the first few, entail much more than a "few clicks". It's countless needless and redundant clicks! Some have the potential to ruin an entire project or waste hours fixing out-of-sync takes and correcting audio and CC automation ramps.

Jim, MLC and cuttime, can you really say you are satisfied with the way cutting, sniping and pasting work between tracks with automation or Conductor Track tempo changes??? it's easily one of DP's weakest points!
cuttime wrote:Have you actually used the grim DAW? I tried it years ago and found it almost childishly simple. Perhaps the simplicity is an advantage. Perhaps things have changed since I last tried it. Why don't you take it for a spin and report back if you still feel the same way.
It has improved A LOT since then, cuttime.
I'm actually VERY tempted to try it, but I already have on my plate more than I can chew... I'm incorporating Ableton's Live Suite 10 into my DP workflow, and that, along with some of the synths I'm learning, will take all of my alloted time for learning for the next few months... But I'm still tempted.

PLEASE note that most of my rant is regarding MIDI CC and audio automation editing, especially when coupled with timeline edits. That unnamed DAW has a different and weird paradigm in other aspects, and those I do not like. But the CC editing... :love:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:FWIW, FM, I've been using DP to edit MIDI for about 20 years or longer and have never had a MIDI edit it couldn't handle. I suppose it may well be a matter of how one composes and produces, but that said - I do a range of projects from post audio and music for film, to theatrical and dance productions, to videos, promos, silent films, animation, etc., and I always seem to get finished in record time.
I've always managed every MIDI challenge as well, and I also finish my projects in time. But that doesn't mean time could not be spent in more musical matters instead of finding clunky workarounds to make things work.

Don't you find it ridiculous you can't "mute" any CC other than volume and pan? I must use DOZENS of them for my VIs. It's the only way to resemble a real instrument.
How about moving, pasting or snipping tracks with CC or MIDI automation? Do you like the results? Wouldn't you rather spend that time composing instead of fixing those damned tempo and CC ramps?
MIDI Life Crisis wrote: I would imagine someone using 100s of tracks for every articulation could get tired of clicking around. I simply refuse to fall into that trap.
But I don't work like that! I use one track per instrument, and I switch articulations via Keyswitching. I don't need more than 60 tracks for a full orchestra.

Other guys work like you say, and I agree, it's too clumsy and slow. My template is very big, but that's because I preroute all my VIs. But I never use more than one track per used instrument, just like you.
MIDI Life Crisis wrote: As stated earlier, if someone wants real sounding instruments they need to hire really great players. Period. If I'm delivering an electronic product, I'll do my best to replicate the required instrumentation, but it's gonna be electronic and ultimately, good ears will hear that right away. But I digress... :unicorn:
Yes and no... Sometimes I think I come VERY close to the real thing... Enough to fool directors, producers and even some musicians.
However, given the choice, I'd obviously opt for a real PROFESSIONAL, Hollywood-grade orchestra anyday of the week.

Like I've said before, UNLESS the live orchestra is TOP NOTCH, with the best performers and sight readers in town, with the best recording engineers and an awesome sounding venue, I will get MUCH BETTER results with my samples every single time by a wide margin. I know this from experience.
Last edited by FMiguelez on Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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---------------------------

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Absolutely agree. Only a-listers need apply.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:I completely agree with you, FMiguelez, that DP has a long and persisting list of persistent weaknesses. Obviously, it is a mixed bag, as DP does MANY things extraordinarily well. But things like frequent crashes, tiny velocity & tempo handles, weird selection, dragging, scrubbing and other glitches; sucks creative juice out of me.

When a new version comes out, I look for things that have been broken to be fixed and usually they aren't.
I didn't see your response when I answered. I'm so glad you understand and see the issues I've mentioned, Stubbs :)
Stubbsonic wrote: My recent experience with support denying there is a particular problem, then blaming the problem on 3rd party VI's (even though I demonstrated it is also an issue with their own VIs), then saying they'll let me know if they figure anything out. I'm usually the first person to assume the best intensions with people and give them the benefit of the doubt, but the exchange just really was invalidating and frustrating.
Hmmmm.... Not very encouraging, and especially not very useful.
Stubbsonic wrote: BTW, I don't know what DAW you are talking about. (Old Eng Perv?)
Jack the R... was quite mean to the English ladies... :) It's the app that gets **** when written fully in these fora.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by stubbsonic »

Ahhhh. Got it.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by nk_e »

You said you were using “two of the younger” DAWs. What was the other?

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by FMiguelez »

nk_e wrote:You said you were using “two of the younger” DAWs. What was the other?
It's not I who use them, but a friend of mine.

If I understood him correctly, it used to be almost a toy... Fruity Loops (!), which then evolved into FL Studio. That one, while capable of some very impressive things, I found it too "alien" for my taste.
It seems to be very directed at EDM users. I did NOT like a lot of its workflow, but like I mentioned, it has some extremely cool and impressive set of tools to mess with MIDI CCs, as well as the other one.

Also, I did some very informative reading in our own Robert Randolph's blog, which brought some perespective into this as well. His blog is quite interesting!

Now, I obviously do not intend this thread to be taken as a commercial ad for those other DAWs, but comparissons are needed for context. I trust you guys can see that.

I do love DP to death, and it is the DAW that has helped me grow in my career and put bread on my table. I haven't encountered any situation that I couldn't handle with DP. BUT, it is the way and the hoops one must sometimes jump through that makes the difference in certain aspects, like the ones I mentioned in the OP.

It is like a car. They will all take me to my final destination. I could drive one using my feet like the Flintstones, or I could get there with style on a Bentley.
DP has some aspects of the former, as well as the latter. It is the first that concerns me, thus my severe critique/petition in the OP.
Last edited by FMiguelez on Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by nk_e »

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

I got a feeling I know how this thread is going to go...

Good luck!
Last edited by nk_e on Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Gravity Jim »

It is not fair to include things like "frequent crashing" among DP's drawbacks. I'm running 9.51 under Mac OSX 10.13.4 [beta], and it NEVER crashes. I haven't seen DP crash in so long I can't even remember when it was. "Frequent crashing" is your problem, not DP's.

I will restate that MOTU's care to DP to provide accurate audio is much more important to me than any MIDI controls. Full disclosure: I just don't do that much MIDI editing... if it looks like it's going to take more than fixing two or three notes, I play the part again. Faster, easier, more fun.
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