Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling...

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I've also been crash free for a very long time on DP. Frankly, I don't even think about "the program" when working, just abou the artistic goals of the music or tracks in question. I couldn't be happier with DP.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Michael Canavan »

OK I'll be honest here, I don't consider DP the MIDI king. DP has always had a few distinct shortcomings MIDI wise that other DAWs do not have:
-Only relative snapping to edit grids, other DAWs also do absolute,
-No MIDI note range on MIDI tracks- any split keyboard or note limiting has to be done on hardware, sometimes not possible.
-No MPE support, this was just finalized, but the implementation is simple, a DAW allows all 16 channels of a MIDI port to write to the same MIDI track. About half the DAWs out there support it.

Same goes for audio, DP is not best in class there either, the new algorithms are great, but the implementation is limiting, it's from 20 years ago. Looking at some program like Live and it's time stretching and you get why I would say this. Other programs do it even better than Live when it comes to things like dropping in a REX file, converting it to an audio file that stretches to the tempo etc.

Rendering, I hear people on liking that DP will do real time rendering rather than just double time, which can have issues.. but other programs offer rendering of all tracks to separate audio files, rendering of selected busses for Stems, labeling of those tracks or stems with the project, track name, date, bpm etc. etc.

GUI wise, DP is behind now here as well, which is an absolute shame, because by 2002 screen resolution standards DP is by far the best. Small fonts and the dreaded cc velocity sizes from back then... Those fixed and DP is by far the best. UI wise I think it's the best for sure. People complain about sub-windows etc but other DAWs do things like have the main window change depending on selection....

I have four DAWs on my computer: DP, Logic, Live and the grim one. DP is not at the top of the list in terms of features, it would go in descending order, grim, Logic, DP and Live. Now in terms of UI and UX, DP is #1 with a bullet. There are only a slight amount of snags to learning DP when coming from other DAWs or just getting into it. Plus this falls into UX, DP has the best 'selection' features, it's pretty easy to get around in DP despite not having object oriented MIDI.

In my opinion the PreGen leap was to maintain decent track counts. In a very recent test I did with the 4 DAWs here, DP was a solid middle. Loading CPU hungry Diva into a track with a simple MIDI note run then copying that track until right below CPU crackles etc. Results were pretty much what I expected.
Grim- 14 instances
Logic and DP - 11
Live- 9 instances.

Live's excuse is good, it polls all possible MIDI inputs all the time, has some sort of audio engine buffer that doesn't hiccup half as much as the others when doing things like adding FX while playback is on etc. DP is right there with Logic, which I'm sure is the main reason for PreGen to compete with the former leanest DAW, and it's working. "Grim", James would rather we not talk about, and I get that, it's his labor of love these forums, and the nag-ware nature of it's copy protection is an open invitation to people to do the wrong thing and just steal it. I will say this though, the software is deep, pretty much a two man effort, and really not intuitive at all, any hacker looking into it as a freebie has his work cut out for him. They did something right audio engine wise though, it's lean, as lean as can be.

I'll continue to use DP for sure, but I will use the other DAWs here as well. MOTU seem to have spent the last four years improving the audio playback with PreGen and adding in the Windows version. This is all good I suppose, but the other DAWs here on my system have improved vastly in the same amount of time, and either already had a Windows version, or never will in the case of Logic. Nothing beats the Track overview window for navigating large projects, so any sort of orchestral work and DP is an obvious #1 choice, but for a lot of other types of work the other DAWs here have distinct advantages, heavily edited electronic music, situations where VCA faders would be useful, MPE support etc. Hopefully that changes when MOTU drop DP 10.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by stubbsonic »

Gravity Jim wrote:It is not fair to include things like "frequent crashing" among DP's drawbacks. I'm running 9.51 under Mac OSX 10.13.4 [beta], and it NEVER crashes. I haven't seen DP crash in so long I can't even remember when it was. "Frequent crashing" is your problem, not DP's.
Frequent crashing is a major drawback for me. But I understand that DP's issue of frequent crashing hasn't affected you or MLC the way it has me and others.

For me, DP has always been more crash prone than ANY other software I've ever used. And that's going way back, over multiple computers, boot drives, and OS's.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that the reasons that DP has crashed so much for me might not entirely be MOTU's fault. I don't always know the causes. I only know that it is not an issue I have
with other software.

Sometimes DP's prefs get corrupted. I have never had to trash preferences with any other program. Sometimes I have to reinstall DP, and I can't think of another program that requires this on a regular basis.

I'm saying, along with FMiguelez, that there's room for improvement, stability-wise.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Gravity Jim »

Michael Canavan wrote:OK I'll be honest here, I don't consider DP the MIDI king... I have four DAWs on my computer: DP, Logic, Live and the grim one. DP is not at the top of the list in terms of features, it would go in descending order, grim, Logic, DP and Live.... In a very recent test I did with the 4 DAWs here, DP was a solid middle. Loading CPU hungry Diva into a track with a simple MIDI note run then copying that track until right below CPU crackles etc. Results were pretty much what I expected.
Grim- 14 instances
Logic and DP - 11
Live- 9 instances.
I guess your evaluation is fine, as long as you understand this is because the "Grim One" produces lousy audio, as does Logic Pro. As has been stated in every DP manual I've had in my hands, DP's primary directive is to get the audio right. Everything else takes a back seat.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Michael Canavan »

Gravity Jim wrote: I guess your evaluation is fine, as long as you understand this is because the "Grim One" produces lousy audio, as does Logic Pro. As has been stated in every DP manual I've had in my hands, DP's primary directive is to get the audio right. Everything else takes a back seat.
I do not notice DP producing a higher quality of audio. Rendering audio to disk in real time tends to lead to less chances of something going wrong, but I don't hear DP by default doing better audio rendering than others. All arguments about summing busses being different for various DAWs just seem like hot air to me, and no, the renders I've done in other DAWs don't seem to produce lousy audio compared to DP.

If you're talking about offline audio rendering having a higher chance of something going wrong I can agree with that, though in my experience it's rare. If you're saying by default a track rendered in grim, Logic etc. is going to produce worse audio quality than DP, I 100% disagree.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by nk_e »

Michael Canavan wrote:
Gravity Jim wrote: I guess your evaluation is fine, as long as you understand this is because the "Grim One" produces lousy audio, as does Logic Pro. As has been stated in every DP manual I've had in my hands, DP's primary directive is to get the audio right. Everything else takes a back seat.
I do not notice DP producing a higher quality of audio. Rendering audio to disk in real time tends to lead to less chances of something going wrong, but I don't hear DP by default doing better audio rendering than others. All arguments about summing busses being different for various DAWs just seem like hot air to me, and no, the renders I've done in other DAWs don't seem to produce lousy audio compared to DP.

If you're talking about offline audio rendering having a higher chance of something going wrong I can agree with that, though in my experience it's rare. If you're saying by default a track rendered in grim, Logic etc. is going to produce worse audio quality than DP, I 100% disagree.
Well, the other thing is ... how long can MOTU hide behind "DP's primary directive is to get the audio right. Everything else takes a back seat"? Back in the late 80s, 90s, that carried some weight. But it's been, what, 30+ years now? Computational power has increased a thousandfold. Surely maintaining that focus must be getting easier, no? And that focus does not preclude improvement in other areas....

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Gravity Jim »

Hide behind??!? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? And what, exactly, do you guys do with your DAWs?

Disagree all you like, but as for "hearing" problems in audio from other DAWs, I don't just hear it, I've run phase cancellation tests on Logic Pro and The Grim. What went in did not come out. DP produces better audio. Since I'm in the business of producing audio, I choose what I consider to be the best-sounding DAW.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by nk_e »

Gravity Jim wrote:Hide behind??!? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? And what, exactly, do you guys do with your DAWs?

Disagree all you like, but as for "hearing" problems in audio from other DAWs, I don't just hear it, I've run phase cancellation tests on Logic Pro and The Grim. What went in did not come out. DP produces better audio. Since I'm in the business of producing audio, I choose what I consider to be the best-sounding DAW.
Fair question. "Hide behind" is provocative. My apologies.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that even if audio quality is pre-eminent for MOTU, surely it does not preclude other advancements. The short comings listed earlier - even if they are unimportant to you - exist for many.

We like to point to DP's preeminence in film scoring, and its use in live shows. However, those rarefied markets are small and by no means 'locked up'. Can they support DP into the future, or does DP need to evolve/refine its capabilities to maintain and grow its user base?

Like it or not 'grim' is here to stay (whether or not we are allowed to type its name in this forum). Cubase and the like are progressing. Cubase is making serious inroads in film for example. That is happening for a reason...and many of those reasons were listed earlier. Let's have a discussion about what we would like to see improve and help MOTU in the process.

I've seen these conversations shouted down here. Insularity does not inoculate against progress or market erosion.

FWIW YMMV

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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by Michael Canavan »

Gravity Jim wrote:Disagree all you like, but as for "hearing" problems in audio from other DAWs, I don't just hear it, I've run phase cancellation tests on Logic Pro and The Grim. What went in did not come out. DP produces better audio. Since I'm in the business of producing audio, I choose what I consider to be the best-sounding DAW.
There have been dozens of articles on this, dozens of tests performed with dozens of DAWs
Bottom line, the math for rendering tracks to a stereo file is universal. The differences people hear between DAWs is just different panning laws, and their own settings. If you got bad sounding files out of Logic and better sounding files using DP then you did not have the same settings in both DAWs, period.

Go to Pro Tools forums and hear consummate professionals touting PT as having better summing, same with Cubase forums etc. There’s a bias that people have toward what they use, but since at least the early 2000’s people have done tests and universally past the introduction of 32 bit summing engines and above, there is no difference between summing busses in the various DAWs.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by FMiguelez »

Gravity Jim wrote:It is not fair to include things like "frequent crashing" among DP's drawbacks. I'm running 9.51 under Mac OSX 10.13.4 [beta], and it NEVER crashes. I haven't seen DP crash in so long I can't even remember when it was. "Frequent crashing" is your problem, not DP's.
It's also not fair you are saying that, as if it were the only issue I mentioned. If you read my post objectively, you'll see that was mentioned just on passing and it is not even the meat of the issue.

So, I take you never see ANY of the problems I mentioned, and all that works great for you?
Can you mute CCs? Do you like wasting time fixing CC AND AUDIO automation ramps?
Do you like putting your tracks in their folder structure EVERY TIME you import a clipping?


You are clearly not addressing any of my points, and nitpicking only the unimportant or irrelevant parts. It almost sounds as if you think DP is already perfect with no need of further improvement or development.
Gravity Jim wrote: I will restate that MOTU's care to DP to provide accurate audio is much more important to me than any MIDI controls. Full disclosure: I just don't do that much MIDI editing...
That is very obvious by now. But the fact you don't use much MIDI does not mean the problems I pointed out do not exist. It only means YOU don't care and are not affected because you don't use them.

For me, MIDI and audio are equally important, since I need both for my work.
Gravity Jim wrote: if it looks like it's going to take more than fixing two or three notes, I play the part again. Faster, easier, more fun.
Come on, Jim... THAT is a straw man. Who said ANYTHING about "fixing two or three notes"??? It's almost as if you were dismissing the problems I mentioned out-of-hand (after admiting you don't use much MIDI).

I did mention wasting hours re-synchronizing messed up takes or automation ramps, or irreversibly messing up your project if you insert a mere tempo change after pitch correcting. Have you seen the Frankensteinian mess that creates? It's almost comic seeing the result of that!

I think I've been very clear with the issues DP has with MIDI (and audio) and you can't deny them just because you don't use them.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by stubbsonic »

My little gripes from other threads about how DP lost its ability to scrub/cue quantized MIDI correctly, or how the visual feedback for dragging notes and selecting notes is often wrong, this is basic level stuff. That someone on the MOTU support staff leads by denying there is a problem, or claiming "all DAWs work this way" doesn't help.

I can load cheap and free MIDI sequencers that scrub, select and edit correctly. This is basic stuff, and as someone who works with MIDI extensively, these things have been frustrating to no end.

OTOH, DP is brilliant in many respects, and in many cases, I've gotten help from some kind and sincerely respectful support folks at MOTU.

I guess I could look at other programs for MIDI editing, but I'd rather use a DP that has undergone an extensive, and loving bit of maintenance.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by toodamnhip »

FMiguelez wrote: Also, I saw first hand the wonderful ability of moving stuff around freely and NOT creating weird and unexpected CC and tempo ramps all over the place, as DP always does. Cutting, pasting and snipping always give clean and accurate results, no matter what you do or how many CCs and audio automation there is in any track.

The reason that this made me feel a bit bitter than expected is that I've complained and asked MOTU about this since DP4, and it's still as bad as always in DP9!
The fix, at least for this, is an extremely simple algorithm they could implement in probably one evening. But they haven't. WHY???

No more guitar plugins, please. I want to see real, innovative and cool features that let us work smarter and faster, with tools that do not require wasting time double checking and baby-sitting every track after simple arranging moves (see above).

I feel (not know) that they've wasted too many resources with their PreGen engine at the expense of basically stopping new feature development.

Like I said, based on what I saw from 2 of the "lesser" and youngest DAWs, DP is clearly no longer the MIDI king. It seems it's been demoted to a mere pawn in comparisson, and anyone who uses those DAWs or observes a user who knows what he is doing with them can not deny any of this.

I might get flamed for this. Bring it on, if you wish, but the fact will remain.

Have we slept on our laurels for too long? I think so...
The ball is on MOTU's court. Let us see what they come up with DPX. Hopefully they will address some of this and repair the parts of the program that are a disaster, such as:
-- the Comp tool and its resulting takes management: No option to make takes follow edits.
-- irreversibly messing up pitch automation after simple Conductor Track moves, such as tempo changes

-- moving, cutting, pasting and snipping stuff with CC, audio automation and/or Conductor Track tempo changes is a nightmare and ridiculously unreliable. It's an excercise of frustration. It ALWAYS creates unwanted and unexpected ramps
-- not being able to mute selected CCs ( ! ) without ridiculous workarounds

-- tracks showing outside of the folder structure when importing clippings

... And all that is just fixing old things. What about comming up with great new features? Please notice what your competition is doing, and implement some of that in even better ways. We already have a looooooong "DP wish list" for your reference. Better yet, you could ASK US, your users, what we want and what we need.

MOTU??? What are you going to do about all this?
I can only hope DPX will be so much better and powerful. Hopefully this is why it is taking so long for this new version to materialize...
I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you wrote here.
But the ramp automation issue truly caught my eye!
The stupid ramps DP makes when moving automated sections of a song is a nightmare for me, a real problem. Any user knows there is a REAL problem with their DAW when they either “dread” a certain task, or avoid doing something they NEED to do. I work so hard on a mix through to the end of Chorus 1, and automate very heavily. Practically 100% of the time, pasting those choruses around is a herculean task, necessitating the creation of tiny buffer snap shot automation zones, just before and after the chorus paste, so that there won’t be stupid ass ramps added by DP. It’s like I have to block my own DAW from screwing up my automation by creating and "automation fire wal"l to stop the retarded AUTO ramping some genius at MOTU thought was a “good idea”. This is ancient, terrible technology, most likely from pre digital performer programming. It is simply STUPID.
The other issue is 3rd party plug in compatibility with snap shot automation. Yikes...

I have a whole list of issues I have been accumulating, but this ramping of automation is total DP amateur hour and I hate it with a passion. It interferes with my work and schedule on a weekly basis, and costs my clients money. It also make me feel guilty to bill for time spent due to bugs and terrible programming in my own DAW. Every time these unwelcome, DP created ramps hit me, I get close to going back to Pro Tools. I doubt I am alone in this.
There are many here who will privately applaud you and I for speaking out. And then there will be members here saying their systems are “perfect”, and the we are somehow ungrateful. On closer inspection, I have found some of these members to be running very light trac counts of audio, with few or no VIs, expecting that to be some sort of “perfection” on the part of DP. Try over 100 tracks of multi-bussed audio, with full orchestral, piano and drum VIs, going through multiple master busses, and culminating in mastering processing like Ozone and Lurssen on a final master bus . Add to that heavy plugs like Slate, and tons of automation on all plug ins, and you have the real test of whether or not DP is “perfect”. It is not, and that’s ok. But some of the bare bones issues that have remained unsolved for decades are inexcusable. A user should be able to paste a chorus around without all hell breaking lose.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by James Steele »

This has sort of devolved into a gripe session and so I'm going to move it to the OT section (which includes "Gripes") where the less focused discussion belongs. It started out with a list of specific features, but if so the topic header chosen by the OP really invited the broader discussion we see here.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by mhschmieder »

My housemate uses FL-Studio, but strictly does backing tracks for hip-hop artists. I tried it back in 2005 when a band member at the time was using Fruity Loops and I felt I needed to learn it so I could try to take seriously his ultimately rejected submissions to band material for the album we did in '05. I probably should have kept an open mind to try it again as it evolved.

The only thing I haven't been able to do efficiently is to convert Note On Velocity to MIDI CC values for use with Sample Modeling and other libraries (sampled or modeled) that expect MIDI CC's as the exclusive way of dealing with both volume and dynamics. That's what I use Logic for.
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Re: Has DP, THE MIDI king, been slayed? Saw its head rolling

Post by toodamnhip »

James Steele wrote:This has sort of devolved into a gripe session and so I'm going to move it to the OT section (which includes "Gripes") where the less focused discussion belongs. It started out with a list of specific features, but if so the topic header chosen by the OP really invited the broader discussion we see here.
I think gripe is accurate so yes, it belongs in that section.
One tends to “gripe” after 20 years or so when a bad aspect of a DAW has not been addressed for decades. Though, I am not exactly sure how old DP is, but it must be at least 20, and this issue of automation ramping when pasting sections has been there the whole time. Some things, like “small handles” to grab CC data, and other complaints,....well, those automation handles were amazing new features at one time, and just need an update. But a bad design flaw, like ramping automation willy nilly, was not an asset ever. Just a 20+ yr old design flaw that has never been addressed.

I can imagine you hate bitching. I agree. But somewhere, after some amount of time, it must become understandable...no?..lol... :dance:
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